NOVEMBER 4, 2015
When interviewed, Cardinal Oswald Gracias never clarifies that active homosexuality is mortal sin
Ruby Almeida, lesbian leader of Quest, a British “Catholic”
LGBT organization, with Cardinal Oswald Gracias
I have used red colour to highlight and identify the liberals and progressives as in the LGBT New Ways Ministry (how dare they call themselves either a “ministry” or “Catholic”!) blog reproduced on pages 8-10.
For a much more detailed report on Cardinal Oswald Gracias and his promotion of the LGBT cause, see
CARDINAL OSWALD GRACIAS CHAMPIONS LGBT CAUSE AT THE SYNOD ON THE FAMILY (to be updated)
Nothing But the Truth “India Today” Interview with Karan Thapar – To the Point: With Cardinal Gracias
November 1, 2015
A large number of Catholics in the city have backed Cardinal Oswald Gracias‘ appeal for a more open-hearted approach towards the LGBT community. Though it has drawn angry reactions from certain sections, many Catholics are backing the cardinal’s stand. Listen in.
Transcript (my comments follow at the end of the transcript):
In an interview given in Rome* in October, Cardinal Oswald Gracias, the archbishop of Bombay and a member of the Pope’s council of advisors and therefore one of the most important cardinals in the world, has spoken out in surprisingly compassionate, understanding and warm terms about homosexuality and the LGBT community.
And it wasn’t just a few casual comments but a lengthy and well-considered interview. In fact it’s an interview that carries a clarion call to the Church to change its thinking and its attitude to homosexuality …
*To the LGBT New Ways Ministry, see pages 8 through 10
Karan Thapar: Cardinal Gracias, in an interview you gave in Rome in October, you’ve spoken with understanding, compassion and warmth on homosexuality and the LGBT community. So let me ask you, as one of the foremost cardinals, how do you view homosexuals and LGBT people?
Cardinal Gracias: I would say very clearly and I think that this is the stand of the Church and the stand of Pope Francis also, that we are all part of the Church. If somebody has a particular homosexual orientation it doesn’t mean that we reject that person, we cut him out. We need to be compassionate, understanding and give pastoral care to everybody, including homosexuals. I have no doubt about that at all. So, I was a little surprised that there was a surprise about my comments because this
I think is what the Church is moving towards.
KT: In your eyes is homosexuality a choice or is it a God-given condition?
Cardinal Gracias: Now this I would say we would depend on (?) science. There are different views on
this. I spoke to many African cardinals and African bishops when I was in Rome for the Synod and I was surprised at the amount of emotion on this issue and then I realized that, they told me that there were many young men, young boys, over there who were bitter because they had been made that way by people who had come for sex tourism in certain parts of Africa. That is why they are so hostile to the very idea of showing any compassion or care to homosexuals. But while I understand that and those who victimize young boys and make them get this particular orientation, surely they should be condemned, but we can’t put everybody in the same basket, in the same trade, and say everybody really is bad. A person with homosexual orientation, there are really two views, I’ve discussed this often before with doctors, with scientists, with psychiatrists. Some say it is induced, some say it is really a God-given tendency which they have. If it is a God-given tendency then of course how, who are we to judge, who are we to condemn and reject them. If it is induced, then we should help them to see what they should do and how to rectify the situation. So whatever it is, I do think that we must give them pastoral attention, and I have no doubt about this whatsoever.
KT: Now, in India as you know, the Delhi High Court decriminalized between consenting adults in private in 2009 but last year the Supreme Court reverse that ruling and has made it a crime again. How do you view the step the Supreme Court has taken?
Cardinal Gracias: The Supreme Court really has taken a technical stand that it is the legislature which makes law, not the judiciary. That’s a technical matter for them to decide, but the Church itself is not for the criminalization of homosexuals and homosexual acts. We say these acts are not moral in the sense that they are not the normal way we think God wants things to happen but certainly we do not want criminalization of homosexual acts.
KT: Now, in the interview that I keep referring to, the one that you gave in Rome in October, you say, and I’m quoting you, you say this of homosexuals, “I realize their goodness which many people do not realize, you cannot put them in chains”.
In which case, what do you say to members of the clergy as well as to many members of the laity who regard homosexuality as an evil or as a disorder?
Cardinal Gracias: I would say to them, “Please be compassionate”. Most people have not met people who have got this tendency. When you meet them, and you understand their suffering, their anxiety, their wanting to be part of the Church, their wanting to really be in the mainstream again, then you understand what exactly they are going through, what exactly they are feeling. The Catechism of the Catholic Church, the official document of the Church published only in 1990 I think explicitly said there should be no discrimination in word or in article against homosexuals. This is the general teaching of the Church and this is really Pope Francis has been insisting consistently insisting with us to be compassionate, merciful, and I do think the Church should be that. People are maybe angry. They don’t, I think many people do not fully understand these people, they have not met them. The first step would be meet these people, talk to them, see their difficulty and then see how we can help them.
KT: I want to come to the attitude of the Church towards homosexuality and the LGBT people. You keep stressing the need for compassion. You say that the Catechism of the Church is to be compassionate, to believe that these are people and full-fledged members of the Church. In that interview you say, and I’m quoting you, “My own view is that the Church has to be all-embracing, inclusive and take care of everybody”. But there are many who believe that that’s not been the traditional attitude of the Church and are you saying to those hardline, rigid traditionalists that they need to change their thinking?
Cardinal Gracias: I would say so. I would say so. I do understand why they feel that way. Probably they have never reconsidered. They’ve always, I think that many people have felt that this was something that was done totally by choice and therefore people try to define regular norms, set norms and become homosexuals, etc. “Please”, I would say to them “Look at the cases, meet the people, see their suffering … my conviction is that people will gradually come to accept what the Church is saying, what I’m saying that is, and that’s really the direction in which the Church will be going.
KT: I want to quote something else that you said in that interview in Rome because I think in many ways that’s a seminal interview. You said, “To not to be welcoming would not be a Catholic attitude. It would not be Christ’s attitude.” How should the Church make itself more welcoming to homosexuals and the LGBT community?
Cardinal Gracias: I would completely stand by what I said and that really is true. The Church has got to be welcoming to everybody whatever their sexual orientation and I think in that interview I said, “No mother rejects her own children no matter what and therefore the Church has got to be embracing, trying to find what pastoral care we can give and we discussed this during the Synod. It came up for discussion in the Synod also. We could not come to an agreement because of different people saying different things, but I think that this is the direction the Church would go because I think that this is what Christ would do. The Church, we, should as disciples of Jesus Christ have got to do what he would do, and I think that’s what he would do, he would be welcoming, understanding and guiding and helping them.
KT: But it’s no great secret that the clergy, bishops, archbishops in Africa take a very different view to homosexuality. They do genuinely believe it is evil and sinful. How can you convince them to be more welcoming, to be compassionate, to be embracing?
Cardinal Gracias: I know, I know.
As I mentioned to you in my discussion with some of the African bishops, I, I, I, …first time understood why there’s so much compassion in this, because they have seen cases of young African boys being, who have been molested by people who have from outside and have made these boys homosexuals. And he says, the bishops told me, “Boys come and tell me, Father, I was not like this, I was made this, I was made this“, and the bishop was, I could make out that he was very emotional, almost tears in his eyes when he spoke of how cruel these people were towards these boys. Now when there’s so much emotion at this moment, you cannot really argue too much and therefore you’ve got to understand why this emotion is … I was thinking of the boys, the African boys who have been victims. Now we must give them pastoral care also, we must welcome them, help them to, I can see why Africa feels so strongly only now after the Synod after I discussed with some African bishops. I do see it will take some time before Africa is able to discuss this.
KT: You do accept that as far as Africa and the Church in Africa is concerned, you have, how shall I put it, a lot of effort to make still before they come around to your way of thinking.
Cardinal Gracias: Certainly, I do think, I do think, I do think. But that’s why also the governments have been so strong, laws are very stringent about this, and I was surprised at the beginning but its only after I spoke to bishops I realised why these laws are made and there’s a certain context and background but I’m hopeful that gradually things will change there too because the Church is in universal, the Church is compassionate, and we all have got to be compassionate.
KT: In that interview, and I keep coming back to it because it is truly a seminal interview, I think one of the most striking things you said was in answer to a question when you were asked, “What would you say to homosexuals and LGBT people who feel spurned by the Church?” And this was your answer “I would say the church embraces you, wants you, and the Church needs you. You are not someone who is a burden to the Church. You are part of us.” Now its one thing to say that in Rome. It would be a completely different thing to say it in India. Can you repeat that thought and those sentiments in public in India?
Cardinal Gracias: I, I, I think India is gradually getting also accustomed, this is a, a, when people understand what homosexuality is, how they have this tendency, this should of course be much more scientifically searched (sic), I don’t think that India also, India especially the liberal-minded, the Indian people think, reflect and see what’s to be done, and I think the Indian community, the Indian people would gradually also accept this.
KT: You think India is becoming more tolerant and it is becoming more accepted?
Cardinal Gracias: And it’s not really in India.
KT: So you have no hesitation repeating those words in India to an Indian audience? You wouldn’t shy away from doing that?
Cardinal Gracias: No (…?…) that they are part of us because that was the question, er, they feel rejected. I said “no, we needed you, you are part of us, you are our parishioners, you are our people, we care for you, we need you, we embrace you and we’ll take care of you.” That’s what I said. And I would have no hesitation in repeating that over here.
KT: In which case let me ask you this: if Indian gays who are Catholics were to ask you to say Mass for them, would you agree?
Cardinal Gracias: Yes. As a matter of fact they have asked me once. Because I would say (…?…) if I would offer Mass for them. I said “Certainly I would have no difficulty in saying Mass for you.” You understand that there are strict rules about who receives Communion and who does not receive Communion etc. All that will have to be observed. But to say a Mass and to pray together with them, I would have no difficulty. If they asked me explicitly about this and I said yes, I would be willing to do that. I think that would be a sign of hope in which the Church, the Church is showing it. You see, the Holy Father Pope Francis called a Year of Mercy from December 8th and I am sure that in many parts of the world there are going to be such Masses. I discussed this with the Archbishop of Chicago. He was telling me how he is dealing with this.
And I can see everybody is trying to find ways forward in this.
KT: I have to say that your views are … “almost revolutionary”. Compared to what one has heard traditionally from the Church, your views are almost earth-shakingly different. Now you are also a member of the Pope’s council of nine cardinal advisors. That makes you a member of a very small group of select important cardinals. Have you discussed your views on homosexuality and the LGBT community with Pope Francis?
Cardinal Gracias: No, no, I have not (specifically?). This has not come up for discussion. But I can see, we discussed so many things formally, informally, and I would think that this would be also his view but we have never really formally discussed this, neither formally or informally, never discussed this.
In one interview in a plane he said, “Who am I to judge?” I don’t know when that was, one of his first interviews in the plane, I think coming back from Brazil, when they asked him what is his attitude towards homosexuals. But I, I think that he would be … I would be rather similar to what he is saying, I think.
KT: You are fairly confident that although you have not discussed these views with Pope Francis either formally or informally, you are fairly confident that his views would accord with yours.
Cardinal Gracias: Yes, I would say that. I would say that. This is not changing Catholic doctrine. This is in the traditional Catholic doctrine. But you know, you’ve got to read it, understand it, apply it, and I, I think that many have not read all the Catholic doctrine. I, I’m fairly con…, I’m quite confident, yes, more than fairly confident.
KT: You’re quite confident that the Pope would agree with you. You’re quite confident that the Pope would agree with you.
Cardinal Gracias: Yes.
KT: Unfortunately Cardinal Gracias, many Indian Catholics do not agree with you. Many Indian Catholics have reservations about accepting, leave aside embracing homosexuality and the LGBT community and many of your own parishioners in Bombay who publicly disagree with you. What do you say to them, because their disagreement is well known?
Cardinal Gracias: Yes, I’m aware of that. You see, what we should do, for all of us, should understand, that make a distinction between the person and what they call the sin and the sinner. Now, the person is always got to be respected, accepted and helped. Then of course we’re not charging (?) the morality of that, that has got to be taken care of, and assisted and counseled and come to proper discussion. This is what we’ve been discussing at the Synod also and I, I would think that this, I do know that certain people would not agree. I do not want to disturb them and this, but I want to tell this is Catholic doctrine and this would er, er go well with what Pope Francis is thinking and teaching and wants us to do.
KT: You say that you will say to them that this is Catholic doctrine, that Catholic doctrine has always been understanding, in fact it has always embraced homosexuals, but that’s not how these people read or understand Catholic doctrine.
Melwyn Fernandes, the secretary of the Association of Concerned Catholics has publicly said that the community does not agree with Cardinal Gracias and then he adds, I’m quoting him, “The Bible has never supported or mentioned anything about homosexuality.” In a sense, he’s quoting Scripture against you.
Cardinal Gracias: The whole of the Scriptures, the whole of the Gospels, is Jesus saying, “Be merciful, be compassionate, give love to people, help everybody. That’s the whole, the whole meaning of the Gospel is that. So I can understand. I respect what Mr. Fernandes is saying but then this really what the Catholic community (?) is.
KT: You’re also saying that Mr. Fernandes is fundamentally wrong, that his understanding of the Catholic Faith is wrong.
Cardinal Gracias: Yes. Yes … (?) theology and morals and canon law …
KT: All along this interview you have pointed out that it is for politicians and the legislature to change the law. The Congress party in its manifesto in 2014 did commit itself to decriminalizing homosexuality. But the BJP, the ruling party of the day is shy or scared to do so. How would you encourage Mr. Modi and his government to take that step? What would you say to convince them don’t be shy or scared, this is the right thing to do.
Cardinal Gracias: I guess that Mr. Modi has got so many things, important things to deal with and this perhaps is not high on his priority list. But gradually I guess when they reflect and understand and see what people are thinking all over the world … they will … I am hopeful they’ll also come to see this. This is what governments and countries all over the world are saying.
KT: Let me put to you an argument that sometimes is made by the BJP. They say that on issues of morality and sexuality, the law cannot march ahead of what society and convention will accept. In other words, until Indian people as a whole are ready to accept homosexuality, the law can’t decriminalize it. How do you tackle that attitude?
Cardinal Gracias: There is certainly sense in what they say about this. You can’t create social unrest because of this. On the other hand, er, you can’t wait for things to happen. We must also begin to get people to think about it, to understand it. I think that if you really do reflect, understand and read scripture, see what different religions say, you’ll see that this is an open attitude, and I, I think that gradually … I, I’m convinced that in time this will come.
KT: Finally, this is an issue that touches on the lives of millions of people, tens of millions of people. You have the courage and the integrity to speak up. How do you propose to pursue this matter hereafter?
Cardinal Gracias: My own conviction is so clear because this is Catholic teaching, Catholic doctrine, Catholic morals, and it’s even there in the (?) final Synod document about the care for the homosexuals. I know that it was discussed over there. I was in the drafting commission. I know that it was discussed over there. It’ll take time for people to gradually accept it. I do understand it may be something new, surprising, but after reflection and understanding and study of theology and Scripture and morals and canon law, we’ll be able to understand it.
KT: But you will as a cardinal of the Church as well as an individual keep pushing this subject … keep pushing this (?) cause. You won’t give up having spoken once. You will continue to make your voice heard.
Cardinal Gracias: Oh No. No. No. No. For me … (?) this is Catholic theology. This is what Christ would do. This is what the Church wants. We take into consideration all the different circumstances. I, I think that certain people have not fully understood at all what I’ve said earlier in the interview. And that’s why they’ve been upset or disagree when they’ve not understood. But this is the Church’s thinking and this is the direction the Church is going, the direction Pope Francis is leading the Church.
In the detailed report CARDINAL OSWALD GRACIAS CHAMPIONS LGBT CAUSE AT THE SYNOD ON THE FAMILY I had commented:
We would like to affirm that we are in accord with Cardinal Oswald Gracias on his stand against the criminalization of homosexuality and that gay people are not criminals, that they are welcome in the Church, and that priests and bishops should not turn gays away by insensitive or judgemental words or actions.
But it must be kept in mind that apart from his being the President of the Conference of Catholic Bishops of India (CCBI) and the President of the Federation of Asian Bishops’ Conference (FABC), he is one of Pope Francis’ elite council of nine advisors on curial reform as also that he is on the commission for the elaboration of the Final Report of the 2015 Synod to which post he was recently appointed by Pope Francis.
He is therefore expected to be the guardian of orthodoxy and orthopraxis of the Universal Church and of Asian and Indian Catholics in particular.
However, at no time during the past two years, since pastoral consultations commenced for the 2014 Synod, did our Cardinal consult the faithful whom he serves on the issues on which he now openly pontificates.
What is condemnable are his consorting with “Catholic” pro-gay organisations and lobbies for gay rights such as New Ways Ministry and Quest in such a manner as to give them the false impression that indulging in homosexual activity is not sinful, and the false hope that homosexuality will one day be accorded acceptance and formal recognition by the Catholic Church.
In fact, representatives of these groups who met the Cardinal came away believing that he would exercise his pro-gay influence on the Synod — and more so on Pope Francis, the final arbiter of the outcome of the Synod — because of his proximity to the Pontiff.
We do not see any problem with his “saying Mass for an association of gay Catholics” but one wonders how they would be able to receive Holy Communion at Mass if they are practicing/active homosexuals, considering that nowhere in his pronouncements and interviews does the Cardinal explicitly state that indulging in homosexual acts is mortal sin, a truth that no “Catholic” gay activist desires to hear.
In that context, I do not find any point of contention with the Goregaon priest of St. Thomas’ Church who “allegedly described homosexuality as “a great sin” and opposed gay marriage“, to cite the Hindustan Times.
Gay activist Harish Iyer did not need to be “grateful to the church for categorically stating that they are not against homosexuality” when appreciating the Cardinal. The Catholic Church has never been “against” homosexuality, but there are many places in the Holy Bible where homosexual behaviour is condemned as sinful.
Genesis 19: 1-29, Leviticus 18: 22-24, Leviticus 20: 13, Deuteronomy 23: 17-18; 1 Kings 14: 24, 1 Kings 15: 12, Judges 19: 22ff, Romans 1: 26-32, 1 Corinthians 6: 9, 1 Timothy 1: 8-10, 2 Peter 2: 6, Jude 1: 7, etc.
Marriage and family in the Catholic tradition, based on Divine Revelation, are between a man and a woman and not between two individuals of the same sex. So, it is most ironic that gays are inordinately interested in a Synod on the Family, an institution that organized LGBT activism seeks to undermine and destroy.
In my report THE SYNOD ON THE FAMILY-SCANDALOUS DEMAND OF THE INDIAN BISHOPS TO PERMIT USE OF CONTRACEPTIVES
19 SEPTEMBER 2015
http://ephesians-511.net/docs/THE_SYNOD_ON_THE_FAMILY-SCANDALOUS_DEMAND_OF_THE_INDIAN_BISHOPS_TO_PERMIT_USE_OF_CONTRACEPTIVES.doc, I had written:
of the CCBI
under Cardinal Gracias made their unique priorities evident! Endorsing the highly-criticised (http://ephesians-511.net/docs/QUO_VADIS_PAPA_FRANCISCO_18-CATHOLIC_CRITICISM_OF_POPE_FRANCIS_MOTU_PROPRIOS_ON_MARRIAGE_ANNULMENT.doc) recent motu proprio (MITIS IUDEX DOMINUS IESUS AND MITIS ET MISERICORS IESUS) of
on marriage annulments, they want to see the annulment process “speeded up” and “simplified”. People have already called it ‘Catholic divorce’. The Bishops appear to be quite ignorant of the Catholic Church’s existing position on “sex education” and propose that such programmes be made available to Catholics in India. The Bishops want the Church to relax its “stand on contraception in the context of increasing abortions”,
in other words, to declare the use of contraceptives as not-sin in order to address the sin of abortion (as if this issue is endemic only to India; in fact the Bishops’ document imagines that several social problems mentioned by them are exclusive to the Indian sub-continent)…
We see that the demand of the Latin Rite bishops of the Conference of Catholic Bishops of India (CCBI) for the Synod on the Family to relax the Church’s stand on contraception conforms to the agenda of the liberals and so-called progressives. In a March 2015 report on the Latin rite archdiocese, I had rhetorically asked:
IS THE ARCHDIOCESE OF BOMBAY IN THE LIBERAL CAMP AT THE SYNOD ON THE FAMILY
The answer to that question is now only too obvious.
NOW, MY COMMENTS ON THE CARDINAL’S INTERVIEW WITH KARAN THAPAR:
My above comments in the detailed report (again to be updated shortly) on the Cardinal will suffice for this Karan Thapar interview too (a few words are unintelligible), but several other issues need to be included.
The transcript does not convey everything. One must listen in to the Cardinal on the video recording to fully appreciate the hesitation, lack of conviction and clarity in some of his replies to the interviewer, not in the least an encouragement for Catholic viewers and listeners who are concerned about the direction that things seem to have taken during the recently concluded Synod. The Cardinal hems and haws, using a lot of “er”s and stammering “I”s. He frequently introduces the word “this” (I’ve underlined them all for emphasis) oft-times repeatedly in a response without elaborating on the exact details of the issues being discussed.
Instead of being definitive on his opinions and factual matters, the Cardinal repeatedly uses the phrases “I think” or “I do think” (emphasised by me in italics). The Cardinal also uses the word “really” unnecessarily.
One expects reassurance, precision and absolute clarity from a prince of the Church and a member of the C9.
Listen to how the Cardinal obfuscates the truth about the Church’s stand on gay sex instead of reiterating it:
We say these acts are not moral in the sense that they are not the normal way we think God wants things to happen.
To Bombay Catholic homosexuals: “Certainly I would have no difficulty in saying Mass for you.”
To Karan Thapar:
You understand that there are strict rules about who receives Communion and who does not receive Communion etc.
The Cardinal did not any time state — though he had twenty-five minutes in which to do so, and there were ample opportunities available (e.g. above) — that marriage is between man and women for reproductive purposes, that gay sex is consequently abnormal and against the natural law and that unnatural sex is mortally sinful … or even simply that one might be “gay” but celibate!
Why would the Cardinal accede to their request and offer Mass for a bunch of self-professed Mumbai gays? To score brownie points, to ingratiate himself with the liberals in the Church and with the secular media whose only interest is the decriminalization of homosexuality (which the Church anyway supports)?
To give a hand to the progressives in regressing the Church from orthodoxy and Tradition to heterodoxy?
It is well known that the Cardinal Archbishop of Bombay, Ivan Dias, permitted the Tridentine Latin Rite Mass (which has not been, never been abrogated) to be offered “provided they (the faithful who requested it) gave an undertaking that they believe in Vatican II and the new order of the mass” (http://www.mangalorean.com/news.php?newstype=local&newsid=26644).
The present Archbishop of Goa (for example) has turned down repeated written requests from Catholics, even till very recently, to permit the Indult Mass in his archdiocese despite many petitions even appealing to Pope Benedict XVI’s 2007 motu proprio Summorum Pontificum. He demands that there be sufficient signatories to the petition, a number he unilaterally decides, but it is only a ruse to deny them their right to have a Latin Mass. Years ago, one such rejected petition was signed by more than one hundred Catholics (http://rorate-caeli.blogspot.com/2009/02/tlm-update-from-india.html), but still “the Archdiocesan Pastoral Council and the Priests Council … vetoed it“.
Then one wonders why Cardinal Gracias instead of asking for an undertaking from the gay group for example that they accepted the magisterial teaching (CCC) on homosexuality, or that they were not active but celibate homosexuals, immediately acceded to their request to him to offer Mass for their community?
The Cardinal repeatedly assures Karan Thapar of his being prepared to provide “pastoral care” to gays, to engage them with compassion, counseling, “see how we can help them” and what not. From my 15 years of writing thousands of letters to all of the Cardinals and bishops (and even most priests in senior official diocesan positions at the CCBI and CBCI) both by email as well as in hard copy, I can assure the reader that our prelates have no time for genuine pastoral work. They are engaged in anything else but. Period. One might get a response to festival greetings, a letter extolling them, or a money donation, but forget about receiving a reply to a pastoral question concerning one’s Catholic Faith or one’s eternal salvation. When the Cardinal makes all those statements, he is simply playing to the gallery. Over the last few years, I have come to realize that he is an inveterate liar and deceiver.
It is precisely because he engaged himself in carefully maneuvering around speaking the truth that the Cardinal was like a stuck gramophone record, stuttering and using empty words and repetitive rhetoric.
What prevented him from citing the Catechism of the Catholic Church (which he thinks was published only in 1990) which contains the Church’s doctrine on active homosexuality?
On Homosexuality and Chastity CCC #2357-2359, and
CCC #2396: Among the sins gravely contrary to chastity are masturbation, fornication, pornography, and homosexual practices.
Compendium of the Catechism of the Catholic Church #492
on homosexual acts.
He could have mentioned the existence of the famous Instruction Crimen sollicitationis of 1922
which was “an update, in light of the Code of Canon Law of 1917, of the Apostolic Constitution “Sacramentorum Poenitentiae” promulgated by Pope Benedict XIV in 1741 … The 1922 Instruction was given as needed to bishops who had to deal with particular cases concerning solicitation, clerical homosexuality, sexual abuse of children and bestiality” or the November 4, 2005 Instruction “with Regard to Persons with Homosexual Tendencies“.
Please see QUO VADIS PAPA FRANCISCO 03-HOMOSEXUALITY THE SEX ABUSE CRISIS AND THE GAY LOBBY
The citation of the Association of Concerned Catholics’ Melwyn Fernandes’ statement from a secular news report lacks clarity and it appears as if he stated that the Bible (Divine Revelation) has “never mentioned anything about homosexuality”. That is certainly not so. On the previous page, I have referred to the Old as well as New Testament passages wherein God condemns active homosexuals and the sin of homosexuality with the assurance of eternal damnation.
Mr. Fernandes meant that the Christian Scriptures do not support homosexuality and that was clearly understood by the interviewer, Karan Thapar. It is a matter of great regret and shame that the Cardinal stated that “Mr. Fernandes is fundamentally wrong, that his understanding of the Catholic Faith is wrong” when he had the opportunity to convey to Mr. Thapar what the Word of God says.
Cardinal Oswald Gracias informed Karan Thapar that he had a discussion “with the Archbishop of Chicago” concerning offering Mass for a group of gays “He was telling me how he is dealing with this“, elaborating that he “can see everybody is trying to find ways forward in this“. Why am I not surprised? Archbishop
Blase Cupich of Chicago is, like Cardinal Gracias, a liberal! Why didn’t he try Cardinal Gerhard Müller, Cardinal George Pell, Cardinal Peter Erdö, Cardinal Robert Sarah, Archbishop Stanislaw Gadecki or Archbishop Henryk Hoser?
To bolster his case, Cardinal Oswald Gracias cited Pope Francis’ now infamous “Who am I to judge?” statement. Read about that debacle and its fallout (the Cardinal’s attitude to gays is a prime example of it!) in THE FRANCIS EFFECT & WHO AM I TO JUDGE-THE SPIRIT OF VATICAN COUNCIL II? http://ephesians-511.net/docs/THE_FRANCIS_EFFECT_&_WHO_AM_I_TO_JUDGE-THE_SPIRIT_OF_VATICAN_COUNCIL_II.doc
Instead of Catholic apologetics and dogmatic statements from the Cardinal, the interview reeks of apology and personal views. One of the worst bits was his patronizing attitude towards the African Bishops. If they hadn’t stood for orthodoxy, the outcome of the Synod might have been much, much worse, by the way.
The Cardinal felt that the Africans were too “emotional” over the homosexualization of their youth by the sex-tourism industry. To him that emotion was a block: “I do see it will take some time before Africa is able to discuss this“, preventing them from seeing things his way. Then he endorses Karan Thapar’s guess that he (Cardinal Gracias), as part of Pope Francis’ C9, would have to put in “a lot of effort … before they (the Church in Africa) come around to your way of thinking“.
And, maybe the Cardinal needs to read this report on how the liberals tried to buy off the African bishops:
Swiss Catholic money targets African bishops ahead of synod
By Kevin Jones, Washington D.C., August 21, 2015
The Cardinal stated that “whatever their sexual orientation … to not to be welcoming would not be a Catholic attitude. It would not be Christ’s attitude.“
We applaud that true statement of his concerning gays. “No mother rejects her own children no matter what“, he opined. But it is also a fact that a good Catholic mother (St. Monica, for example) would pray for her wayward children, and call sin, sin, and not endorse their sinful ways.
Cardinal Gracias further says, ““we, should as disciples of Jesus Christ have got to do what he would do, and I think that’s what he would do, he would be welcoming, understanding and guiding and helping them.“
“I think that this is the direction the Church would go because I think that this is what Christ would do.“
He doesn’t know for sure. He’s thinking, guessing.
It is most pitiable that our leading prelate uses such apologetic language when called to be our spokesperson. Jesus would hate sin but love the sinner. The Cardinal loves the sinner but condones the sin — if only by his silence, his evasiveness and vagueness, and his ambiguity.
I once again quote Cardinal Gracias, “The whole of the Scriptures, the whole of the Gospels, is Jesus saying, “Be merciful, be compassionate, give love to people, help everybody. That’s the whole, the whole meaning of the Gospel is that.” I’m no theologian or Bible scholar, but I would beg to differ. What the Cardinal says about what the Gospels say or the Bible says is only a PART of the message in the Holy Book. It’s like the Protestants who cite one verse from somewhere in the Bible to say what is necessary for one to be saved. I could fill a few pages in refuting the Cardinal’s summary of the teachings of the prophets, of Jesus and of the Apostles, but for me, the Word of God (Bible + Tradition) is my manual for salvation. Jesus came for that purpose alone and he founded and left behind his Church for that purpose alone. He who meddles with that is the Enemy.
It is understandable that Melwyn Fernandes and the Association of Concerned Catholics — who for many years have been exposing his lies, deceit and treachery at their blog https://mumbailaity.wordpress.com — “said the community will not support the archbishop on his stand” and “said that the community does not agree with Cardinal Gracias“. Their blog and their multitude of emails to the Cardinal on archdiocesan Trust and land scams that have ruined some Mumbai Catholic families and individuals financially as well as emotionally do not elicit from him (the Cardinal) the same feelings that he has for his gay friends: “When you meet them, and you understand their suffering, their anxiety, their wanting to be part of the Church, their wanting to really be in the mainstream again, then you understand what exactly they are going through, what exactly they are feeling.”
If the Cardinal believes that gays are “suffering” as he repeatedly claims, one wouldn’t know it from the lewd parades and the news and videos on social media. After all, they are “gay” and their favorite slogan is “gay pride“, and they certainly don’t want to “really be in the mainstream again” but under their gay pride banner.
It is no wonder then that a Traditionalist site that is popular among Catholic conservatives wrote, “Cardinal Oswald Gracias
one of ten mostly-liberal prelates assigned by Pope Francis to the drafting committee for the final Synod relation, has unexpectedly emerged in recent days as a champion for greater “openness” to homosexuals.” http://rorate-caeli.blogspot.com/2015/10/danger-ahead-signs-emerging-of-liberal.html
During the interview, the Cardinal regularly appeals to Pope Francis. In concluding the interview, he said, “But this is the Church’s thinking and this is the direction the Church is going, the direction Pope Francis is leading the Church.” I am not in the least surprised to be informed that.
However, for the record, the Cardinal has made it abundantly clear as to who is leading the progressive brigade, which only confirms what I have been charging in the multiplicity of reports that I have been constrained to turn out on Pope Francis‘ pontificate.
Cardinal Oswald Gracias’ hint that the Church will “eventually accept homosexual activity” kindles the hopes of the New Ways “Ministry” who have been courting the Cardinal for the past two years:
1. Cardinal Gracias to LGBT People: ‘Church Embraces You, Wants You, Needs You’
By Francis DeBernardo, New Ways Ministry,
October 19, 2015
Cardinal Oswald Gracias is Archbishop of Bombay, the head of India’s National Conference of Catholic Bishops, and a member of Pope Francis’ Council of nine cardinal advisors from around the globe. In the last few years, he has emerged as one of the leading international advocates for better pastoral and civil care of LGBT people. He was the only religious leader in India who opposed an initiative to recriminalize LGBT people, has urged his priests to be more sensitive in their language about LGBT people, spoke out for better pastoral care during last year’s extraordinary synod, and met with the Chair of Quest, the United Kingdom’s Catholic LGBT group.
He is here in Rome for the synod, and I had the pleasure of sitting down with him, one-on-one, for a brief interview on Sunday night to talk about the pastoral outreach to LGBT people, criminalization laws, church doctrine and language, and his own personal journey.
In the last couple of years, you’ve made some very positive gestures in regard to LGBT people. In what ways has your understanding of LGBT people evolved over the years and how did that happen?
Initially it began with involvement in civil law with banning homosexuality. I felt that was not right–indiscriminately putting everybody in same category. Therefore, I spoke, saying the Church was not in favor of this. This was a bit of a surprise to many people because of what they think the Church teaches. You must make a distinction with an individual, who is absolutely part of the Church, who we must care for, and who might have a [homosexual] orientation. You can’t put them in chains, or say we have no responsibility whatsoever. The law was struck down, but now it’s back again.
Subsequently, I met a few people also. I realized their goodness, that many people do not realize. They are often painted one way and the images are bad. My own view is that the Church has to be all-embracing, inclusive and take care of everybody. Our moral principles are clear. I would be too worried that we are breaking our moral code or that the Church’s principles are shattered because we say that we are pastoral. The Catechism has said also that they must be cared for. Some people say you are going too far.
In one way, it’s very Catholic position to welcome. To not be welcoming is wrong.
To not be welcoming would not be a Catholic attitude. It would not be Christ’s attitude, certainly. We have to be very compassionate, understanding, and open to people.
When I read about your stand on the civil law, I read that you were the only religious leader in India to oppose re-criminalization. How did you find the courage to be the only one?
I was convinced. I think gradually others will come to see what I am saying. It’s so clear in my mind. This is what the Church would want. I’m convince that eventually it will be de-criminalized. It’s a question of time.
Did you receive a backlash or criticism for your stand?
Not much. There were a few. There were some theologians who said they disagreed with me. But that was an intellectual discussion, and I was happy about that because it allowed me to sharpen my thoughts on the matter. But there was no campaign against what I said.
In the U.S. we have many parishes who have set up ministries of welcome to LGBT people. What advice would you give to those parishes and pastors working with LGBT people?
I honestly would think that they would know more than me. From experience, you always learn how to do things pastorally. Homosexuality is not fully out of the closet in India. The atmosphere is not so open in the civil society to be able to have people openly come and declare themselves. As a matter of fact a gay association asked me if I would say Mass for them. I said, “Absolutely. No difficulty whatsoever.” I said to them they should keep in mind that they would suddenly be coming out into the open. For me, it’s not a problem.
Do you see any gifts that lesbian and gay people bring to the Church?
I haven’t met enough to make a generalization. But the people I have met have impressed me very much by their sincerity, wanting to help the Church, generosity. Is this specific to them or just because they happen to be who they are? So, I can’t generalize. But all I have met have been good people, wanting to dedicate themselves to work for the Church. When I say “for the Church,” I mean “for people, through the Church’s charities.”
Let’s talk about the synod. Do you think there is going to be any progress made on lesbian and gay issues this year?
I can see there is a great hesitation from the synod fathers to really touch this topic. Therefore, I can see that the synod will probably say that we must receive them in pastoral care. Full stop. Something very gentle and limited. I don’t expect us to be able to say very much more specific on this.
Do you think it would be possible for the synod to make a statement about criminalization since that is happening around the globe?
I feel clear about it and strongly about it. One of the criticisms of the synod is that it is too Euro-centric, and we are carefully looking into that. It’s difficult at this stage to start shifting the whole focus. I’m saying this because I know that Africa is very sensitive about this topic. There’s very clearly a North American-European stance on this topic. How we as a Church, as the universal Church, can take something on board, is something that we have to consider. That is really key.
How about language? There’s been reports that some bishops are proposing getting rid of words like “disorder” and “evil” in relation to LGBT people?
It should be done gently. I’m glad you brought this up. I think there would be an acceptance of saying “Let’s use gentler language, not judgemental language.” The response to this view is “Are you condoning it?” I personally feel that it would help us to have a more clear, objective view of this matter.
Would it have been helpful to the bishops for lesbian and gay people, couples, to speak to the synod the way married couples have spoken?
Personally, I would have thought it would have been an enrichment. I would have been happy to hear them, and I think that it would help all the synod fathers to understand. I think most have never had direct contact or discussion. I have a feeling about that. For them, it’s just a theoretical opinion, but you really don’t come down to the person. When you really see a person, you speak to a person, and understand the anxiety. I often think about what Our Lord’s approach be in that circumstances: sympathetic, understanding.
The whole thing about the origin of sexual orientation has not been studied in-depth. Some say that it’s a choice. I see that it is not a choice for many people, so it’s not fair to say it is. In that sense, we are not open enough.
In my ministry with LGBT people, I meet a lot of LGBT people who are thinking of leaving the Church or finding it difficult to stay in the Church. What would you say to them?
I would say the Church embraces you, wants you, and the Church needs you. You are not someone who is a burden to the Church. The Church needs you. You are part of us. We’d like to help you, we’d like to see you more clearly. We are struggling to see how to help you more with pastoral care
I’d also say, “Don’t get discouraged.” At the last synod there was just one official intervention on this topic; in group discussions it would come out much more. This time there were a few more. So, I would say to [LGBT people], “Hold on. It is certainly not the end. We are still in the process, and we will find a way.
What advice would you give other bishops who may be opposed to any changes on LGBT people?
I would say to the bishops to meet with people. That’s important. Meet with people. That would help us–and me also– to see flesh and blood–that this is not an academic problem but a real problem. It’s not an academic case where you say “A equals B, and B equals C.” There are so many ramifications.
I would say to them that the Church is an all-embracing mother. The Church is mother and teacher. The mother does not send her children away, no matter what.
You gave me a chill when you said that last sentence. It was beautiful. In the. U.S. Church one of the biggest groups that pushes for the rights of LGBT people are the mothers and the fathers. We say they are a bridge because they are very dedicated to the Church and very dedicated to their children.
The parents suffer a lot, but they understand their children. So we can’t be legalistic. We cannot change church teaching or doctrine. I’m not sure we have the final word. We have to continuously study ourselves: Scripture, morality, canon law to see what we could do.
Thank you for your time. I’m sure you are very busy.
When we first started, I said “Why are we having a synod for three weeks?” Now, I’m saying, “Three weeks is not enough!”
2. Synod Cardinal: Church Needs Gays
Synod Father gives interview to condemned LGBT group New Ways Ministry
By Joseph Gonzalez,
October 19, 2015
“The Church embraces you, wants you … needs you.” That’s what Synod Father Cardinal Oswald Gracias said yesterday about homosexuals in an interview to New Ways Ministry, a “Catholic” LGBT activist group condemned by the Vatican.
The archbishop of Bombay, India, said the Church’s attitude towards LGBT people “must be all-embracing, inclusive,” since to “not be welcoming would not be a Catholic attitude. It would not be Christ’s attitude, certainly.”
Gracias supports the idea that the Church should get rid of terms such as “disorder” and “evil” when referring to homosexuality, and expressed hopes the Synod Fathers will “use gentler language, not judgmental language.”
He also discouraged LGBT people from leaving the Church, hinting that the Church would eventually accept homosexual activity. “The Church embraces you, wants you and the Church needs you,” He said. “Hold on … we will find a way.”
Gracias went so far as to say the bishops should have invited homosexual couples to speak at the Synod. “[It] would have been an enrichment,” he lamented. “[It] would help all the Synod Fathers to understand.”
Cardinal Gracias, one of the members of the Synod’s final drafting committee, gave the interview to Francis DeBernardo, Director of New Ways Ministry’s blog.
Last week Churchmilitant.com’s Michael Voris reported that DeBernardo was granted press credentials to the Vatican’s press briefings on the Synod and even allowed to ask questions, despite the fact that his group has been condemned by the Vatican for its heretical ideas, and he isn’t a journalist at all, but rather a gay activist.
The faithful continue to wonder how the director of an LGBT activist group, condemned by the Vatican, got press credentials to the Vatican’s Synod briefing and an interview with a Synod Father, when such are denied to legitimate journalists and media organizations.
8 of 156 readers’ comments
1. With yet another prelate showing his true colors about a Sin that Cries to Heaven for Vengeance, the pope should also strip him of his office – and all the others who have ignored their responsibilities to protect the Faith.
2. And another “heretic” is heard from. Of course I don’t trust anything that comes out of ‘New Wave’, but if true, what is this man doing holding the title of a Cardinal of the Church???
3. Another heretic appointed by Francis to draft the synod final document. What a great comfort that is.
4. The Smoke of Satan is definitely in the Synod, at the very top!
May God give the faithful cardinals the courage and boldness to speak up and to act boldly to defend Catholic doctrine and resist the evil that is being perpetrated.
I hold P. Francis responsible for all of this deception – most of these apostates were hand-picked by him
5. In the past, l used to wonder what lead up to the situation or circumstance that would impel Jesus (surly as a last resort) to making whips and physically driving out those who were defiling His father’s house.
6. I bet bishop oswald garcia (sic) is homosexual.
7. Take note everyone. Yet another betrayer of the faith. This is getting downright painful to read about. Satan has launched a full on attack through sexual perversion. I just never would have thought that SO many high ranking clergy would be in his army (I know, I am probably a little naive).
8. I wonder if ChurchMilitant has an email address of Cardinal Gracias. Maybe instead of commenting what we think about his outrageous remarks here, we could send him some quotations about active homosexuality from the Catechism.
If he has to delete hundreds of emails, he might get the message at last. Actually one could do it for all the progressive Cardinals from the writing committee.
2. How LGBT-Friendly Are the Appointees to the Synod on Marriage and Family?
By Francis DeBernardo, New Ways Ministry,
September 11, 2014
The Extraordinary Synod on Marriage and the Family is less than one month away. The Vatican released the names of the bishops who will be participating, as well as a list of the lay observers.
In terms of the bishops who will be participating, there is a mixed bag on their approach to LGBT issues. Here are some of the prominent names, with a little bit of their history on LGBT topics:
Cardinal Oswald Gracias, Bombay: When India was considering reinstating criminalization of homosexuality, he was the only religious leader to speak against such a measure. He also met in the spring with a Catholic lesbian woman who is an LGBT leader in Great Britain. He also directed his priests to speak more sensitively about LGBT issues.
Church embraces you, wants you, needs you
By Jyoti Shelar,
October 23, 2015
Archbishop Cardinal Oswald Gracias‘ interview on LGBT rights that is making waves both at the Vatican and in Mumbai
Archbishop Oswald Gracias has sparked off an angry reaction in certain quarters in Mumbai with his candid views on the LGBT community in an interview at the Vatican, where he is attending the Synod on Marriage and Family.
Cardinal Gracias is being criticised for his welcoming stand on homosexuality by the orthodox within the community. “In Catholic parlance, a man and a woman make for a family. There is no question of homosexual alliance. It doesn’t count as a family,” said Michael Prabhu, a community member. According to Prabhu, the cardinal had a lot of time to sound off the community about his stand before talking about it in the interview.
Melwyn Fernandes, secretary of the Association of Concerned Catholics, said the community will not support the archbishop on his stand.” The Bible has never supported or mentioned anything about homosexuality,” he said.
In April this year, the archdiocese, for the first time, had asked an open question about homosexuals in the Family Synod Survey circulated within the community suggesting openness about LGBT issues. While many in the community filled the survey, there were closed-door discussions on whether it was right to have that question.
Video exposing the danger to the Faith posed by the Indian Cardinal:
Synod Profile: Cdl. Oswald Gracias
By Michael Voris, October 23, 2015
Cardinal Oswald Gracias has shown a welcoming attitude towards homosexuals, and is one of the 10 members on the drafting committee for the final Synod report…
Michael Voris describes Cardinal Oswald Gracias as “a member of Pope Francis’ gang of nine”.
Within India, the Cardinal is well-known for his pro-homosexual stances. In 2013, he reprimanded a priest from the Archdiocese of Mumbai
for stating in a homily that homosexuality is a quote ‘great sin’ and for additionally opposing same-sex marriage. After receiving a letter of complaint from gay activist groups about the priest, Gracias apologized to the LGBT community. In a public rally, the Cardinal said, “To say that those with other sexual orientations are sinners is wrong. I do think we must be sensitive in our homilies and how we speak in public, and I will so advise our priests.” This received much praise from gay activists who remarked that they were quote ‘grateful to the Church for categorically stating that they are not against homosexuality’ and that quote ‘the Archbishop of Mumbai
has set a benchmark for everyone else’. Later that year when the Supreme Court of India restored a law banning homosexuality as a crime against nature, Gracias quickly jumped to the defense of the Indian gay community to say quote ‘the Catholic Church has never been opposed to the decriminalization of homosexuality because we have never considered gay people criminals’.
Cardinal Gracias made headlines at this year’s Synod when he gave the interview to New Ways Ministry, a Church-condemned LGBT activist group. In the interview, he stressed that the Church’s answer to homosexuals must be quote ‘all-embracing, inclusive’. He continued, “to not be welcoming would not be a Catholic attitude, it would not be Christ’s attitude certainly’. He stated that he is in favour of the Church getting rid of terms such as ‘disordered’ and ‘evil’ in reference to homosexuality, replacing them with gentler language, not judgemental language.
He also said he had no problem offering Mass for a group of active homosexuals.
In 2008, Cardinal Gracias and the Indian Catholic Church came under fire for the publication of an Indian version of the Bible. The so-called New Community Bible was approved by the Catholic Bishops’ Conference of India while Cardinal Gracias was President. The Bible featured several references to the Hindu religion and culture. These included verses and chants from Hindu scripture. An illustration depicting the Flight into Egypt portrays the Holy Family as poor Indian villagers with St. Joseph wearing a turban and the Blessed Virgin Mary marked on the forehead with a bindi. Another picture entitled “Dancing Jesus” depicts Our Lord dancing as drums and a violin are played.
Cardinal Gracias is one of ten chosen to be on the drafting committee for the 2015 Synod on the Family’s final document. UNQUOTE
8 of 16 viewers’ comments
1. The old man is BLIND DEAF AND DUMB — because he cannot and will not do anything about the ROT in his ARCHDIOCESE — first let him tackle the crookery that is going on and THEN PERHAPS he will be SANE enough to comment on spiritual matters
2. Mixing a fake pagan religion with the one true Catholic Church? Blasphemy.
3. How on earth has this guy not been excommunicated yet? His heretical opinions couldn’t be more obvious, yet he is still a cardinal. He doesn’t even try to hide it. It’s just so sad and baffling to think of the corruption and collusion going on within the Church to keep men like him in their positions.
4. The man is a heretic plain and simple. A disgrace that serves as a Prince of the Church. May God have mercy on this pitiful soul and not allow him to lead the faithful of India into such apostasy.
5. Poor Cardinal Gracias is not well. We should pray for him. I think the Jesus he imagines is so welcoming can’t be the same Jesus I know, for the One I know is the same God who wiped Sodom and Gomorrah from the face of the earth. Perhaps if the poor Cardinal re-read his Bible, a Douay-Rheims version perhaps, he might find out what God really thinks about welcoming homosexuals from the account left to us of Lot and his guests and his poor wife.
6. Cardinal Gracias is not just giving a pinch of incents to several evil causes and pagan ideas, he’s starting the fire, and putting handfuls on it to appease the masses who demand he love sodomy and paganism.
7. Every time these synod profiles come up, I’m astounded that I find them more shocking than the last. “Cardinal” Gracias should proclaim himself as a Hindu priest.
8. What a disgrace for a prelate. Pray much for him as his day of Sodom judgment will be fierce if he does not repent.
Archbishop Gracias’ welcoming views on LGBTs sparks criticism
By Jyoti Shelar, October 24, 2015
Archbishop Oswald Gracias has sparked off an angry reaction in certain quarters in Mumbai with his candid views on the LGBT community in an interview at the Vatican, where he is attending the Synod on Marriage and Family.
Speaking to Francis DeBernardo, New Ways Ministry’s executive director, the Cardinal, among other things, stressed the importance of not being judgemental when dealing with the members of LGBT community, especially on their right to be treated with love and compassion by the Church.
The Cardinal, who has been at the forefront of the battle to push for decriminalisation of homosexuality in India, said: “You must make a distinction with an individual who is absolutely part of the Church, who we must care for, and who might have a [homosexual] orientation. You can’t put them in chains, or say we have no responsibility whatsoever.”
Answering a question on the language used in Churches when referring to the members of the LGBT community and some bishops’ suggestion that words like “disorder” and “evil” be discarded, the Cardinal said: “I think there would be an acceptance of saying `let’s use gentler language, not judgemental language.’ The response to this view is ‘are you condoning it?’ I personally feel that it would help us to have a more clear, objective view of this matter.”
Cardinal Gracias is being criticised for his welcoming stand on homosexuality by the orthodox within the community.
“In Catholic parlance, a man and a woman make for a family. There is no question of homosexual alliance. It doesn’t count as a family,” said Michael Prabhu, a community member.
According to Prabhu, the cardinal had a lot of time to sound off the community about his stand before talking about it in the interview. Melwyn Fernandes, secretary of the Association of Concerned Catholics, said the community will not support the archbishop on his stand. “The Bible has never supported or mentioned anything about homosexuality,” he said.
In April this year, the archdiocese, for the first time, had asked an open question about homosexuals in the Family Synod Survey circulated within the community suggesting openness about LGBT issues. While many in the community filled the survey, there were closed-door discussions on whether it was right to have that question.
There are differences between the print version and the version on the Internet.
I had conveyed to the reporter both in writing as well as during our telephonic interview that the Church only views homosexual activity as sinful and also that New Ways is no “ministry” but is a pro-LGBT organization and that they have been condemned by Rome. Those sentiments of mine were omitted by her.
Here is the interview of Cardinal Oswald Gracias with Karan Thapar: