JANUARY 6, 2013

Vassula Ryden excommunicated

http://www.orthodoxchristianity.net

http://www.orthodoxchristianity.net/forum/index.php/topic,5923.0/wap2.html
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ozgeorge
A well meaning (but over-excitable) Roman Catholic friend has just informed me of the “messages” being received by one “Vassula Ryden”, an “Orthodox” woman who claims to receive “messages” in the form of “locutions” from “Jesus” since 1985, and has published these in a series of books with the title “True Life In God”. After reading some of the “Messages” on the “True Life in God” website http://www.tlig.org/, I was very disturbed by their content. Apparently, this movement is very popular among Roman Catholics in Australia, who see it as a “divinely approved” formula of union between the Orthodox and Roman Catholic Churches.
An example of the “messages” is that of May 16th 1988:
I love you creation My entire Church will be renewed, these elements given back to you will embellish It and will perfect It, but first I will crown Peter, Peter-of-My-Lambs, I have given him this name which he will keep; I will enter My Temple just as I had done whilst on earth and with My Belt-of-Integrity strike all those imposters, I will enter with force and overthrow all the money-worshippers. I will enter ‘Jerusalem’ so that the New Jerusalem can begin to see the Light, I will sweep away those blocks and open the Way, this My Vassula will be known as the Great Tribulation of My Church. I will then place into Peter’s hand an iron sceptre with which he will guard My sheep, and for those who do not know and still ask themselves ‘why is it that we have to have a guide?’ I tell you this: have you ever seen or known of any flock of sheep without a shepherd? I am your Heavenly Shepherd and I have chosen Peter to keep My lambs until My Return, I have given him the responsibility, so why all these disputes, why all these futile arguments? and for all those who still do not know My Words, I tell you to read them in the Scriptures, they are to be found in the testimony of John, My disciple, I will then unite My Church and encircle you with My Arms into one fold, for today as it is you are all scattered developing too many communities, split sections, My Body you have torn apart and this CANNOT BE! I will unite you all.

So apparently, it is not Christ, but “Peter” who is to rule with the iron rod, and thus unite us all…….. Sigh….

Matthew777
I believe I have watched speeches of her on videotape. She claims that Christ directs her hands to write the message. Perhaps we should keep an open mind. If Christ really entrusted the Church to Peter, are we to ignore it? Do you have any evidence that she is a fraud?

choirfiend
Perhaps Joseph Smith really received a revelation too. Test them by their fruits; reject this one. Utterly ridiculous.

Strelets
I believe there is a rule in the OC that such visions are not supposed to be communicated to the public, presuming they are true, until the receivee has died. This is to prevent the guruism and self-delusions that frequently drive these “revelations.”

Hadel
I am just reading about Vassula Ryden and especially the 27 Questions… I wanted some thoughts on her… what do I think, well, God, only knows the real Truth.
I pasted the questions and answers below from Ryden’s site… some things, to be honest sounds odd to me… maybe my up bringing, maybe my faith, maybe my old traditions, however, her words are “different;” is a nice way of putting it. So your thoughts, please:
God Be with you all, Hadel
True Peace
The 27 Witnessing Answers
Listed below are Vassula’s own answers to the 27 Witnessing questions which she set for prospective TLIG witnesses. The original questions can be viewed here… [This portion omitted –Michael]

http://www.orthodoxchristianity.net/forum/index.php/topic,5923.5/wap2.html
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eleni
Hi Hadel…..I do remember reading about her years back….

I believe that her revelations are similar to those of Fatima and Medjugorje. Anyway, I think that her revelations are not from God. Many people have had similar and they just do not seem right.
I always go back to the Fathers of the church orthodoxy because there you will find what is needed for your soul.
I’m not having a go at you or to others but though Vassula may be a good person, she has not lived the life as those of our True Orthodox Faith.
If we compare the many prophecies of the fathers and Saints, we see that they struggled and suffered for the faith, one holy, Catholic (ORTHODOX) and apostolic church and when we look at the many other prophecies they don’t come close. 99% maybe, it’s that 1% that the devil gets you with. We must remember that the Devil also knows the scriptures and quotes the scriptures (as when he tempted Christ) Helen

prodromos
Vassula = heretic. She needs lots of prayer. She has fallen into grave delusion and taken many with her.

BritishEnquirer
It is known as channelling in New Age circles. The messages from ‘Jesus’ from her are clearly of the persuasion that the RC Church is the true church also. Christina

ozgeorge
Vassula Ryden may very well be hearing “a voice”, but whose voice is it? Just a cursory look at the myriad of “messages” she has “received”, I came across an unnerving idea which kept repeating:
Quote “…Our good pleasure, then I have set My Throne inside you; I revealed My gifts and My treasures to you, and I adorned you with My mere Presence, it pleased Me to possess you, and pour in you My Wisdom so that your soul shines forth in splendour; I have immersed you in Our limpid springs, to revive you…“ Message of March 9, 1999
“…little one I will be your Consoler; come, feel Me, synchronize with Me, be One, annihilate in Me, let Me possess you entirely and reign over you, let Me thrust you in My Heart, approach; be in Me and I in you, how I love you daughter! “
Message of July 22, 1987
“…..daughter, leave yourself entirely in My hands, let Me use you beloved for healing souls, let Me bind you to Me with love’s chains, let Me feel you are entirely Mine, let Me, who am your Creator possess you….“ Message of February 15, 1987
“….I come to deliver you from evil, I do not come to menace you, I only come to warn you out of My Infinite Mercy; My very core yearns to possess you and make you Mine for all Eternity and invest you in dazzling white robes…” April 10, 1990
“Let me possess you….I want to possess you….let me possess you….”
Does anyone else see a problem with this?

http://www.orthodoxchristianity.net/forum/index.php/topic,5923.10/wap2.html
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jmbejdl
Quote from: ozgeorge on April 22, 2005, 07:06:34 AM
Vassula Ryden may very well be hearing “a voice”, but whose voice is it? Just a cursory look at the myriad of “messages” she has “received”, I came across an unnerving idea which kept repeating: “Let me possess you….I want to possess you….let me possess you….” Does anyone else see a problem with this?
Yes. And it reminds me of the Marian Movement of Priests in the Roman Catholic Church, except that they think the voice talking about possession is that of the Theotokos, not Christ. James

Matthew777
Quote from: prodromos on April 22, 2005, 06:24:08 AM
Vassula needs prayer. She has fallen into grave delusion and taken many with her.
How can you be sure of this? Do you have any evidence against her?

Kizzy
Quote from: Matthew777 on April 22, 2005, 04:55:11 PM
How can you be sure of this? Do you have any evidence against her?

I don’t think anyone can be sure of any of these….It is possible that only in her death will anyone know the truth? Sad to say, these days I’m not sure anyone would recognize Christ standing right in front of us. I also recall  how St. Bernadette was dismissed by the RC  for a long time…I note that one of the issues for the RC church is that she is Greek Orthodox.  wonder how they’d react if she were RC??
Also, I wonder why VR has not been investigated as have the children of Medjugorje who were investigated both scientifically and theologically and why so many clergy of different faiths bring her in to speak. (Apparently during their visions their brain waves change completely to 100% use of the brain, which never happens to a regular Joe.)
Anyhow, much as I am usually skeptical on these things then at the same time I wonder, if you truly believe in Christ our God, mystic events like this are totally possible. Kizzy

Matthew777
We should place the same standard on this woman that Saint Theresa of Avila had for herself: Does she live a life of holiness and good works and is she humbled by her experience? Are her messages consistent with Scripture?
Amadeus
This is the official stance of the Catholic Church with respect to Vassula Ryden, a Greek Orthodox who frequently receives communion in the Catholic Church against the rules of her own Church.
The “Notification” was issued by the Congregation for the Doctrine of the Faith in 1995, then headed by Cardinal Ratzinger, now Pope Benedict XVI:

“NOTIFICATION ON VASSULA RYDEN
Congregation for the Doctrine of the Faith

“Many bishops, priests, religious and lay people have sought an authoritative judgement from this Congregation on the activity of Mrs. Vassula Ryden, a Greek Orthodox residing in Switzerland, who in speech and in writing is spreading in Catholic circles throughout the world messages attributed to alleged heavenly revelations.
“A calm, attentive examination of the entire question, undertaken by this Congregation in order to “test the spirits to see whether they are of God” (cf. 1 Jn 4:1), has brought out-in addition to positive aspects – a number of basic elements that must be considered negative in the light of Catholic doctrine.
“In addition to pointing out the suspect nature of the ways in which these alleged revelations have occurred, it is necessary to underscore several doctrinal errors they contain.
“Among other things, ambiguous language is used in speaking of the Persons of the Holy Trinity, to the point of confusing the specific names and functions of the Divine Persons. These alleged revelations predict an imminent period when the Antichrist will prevail in the Church. In millenarian style, it is prophesied that God is going to make a final glorious intervention which will initiate on earth, even before Christ’s definitive coming, an era of peace and universal prosperity. Furthermore, the proximate arrival is foretold of a Church which would be a kind of pan-Christian community, contrary to Catholic doctrine.
“The fact that the aforementioned errors no longer appear in Ryden’s later writings is a sign that the alleged “heavenly messages” are merely the result of private meditations.
“Moreover, by habitually sharing in the sacraments of the Catholic Church even though she is Greek Orthodox, Mrs. Ryden is causing considerable surprise in various circles of the Catholic Church. She appears to be putting herself above all ecclesiastical jurisdiction and every canonical norm, and in effect, is creating an ecumenical disorder that irritates many authorities, ministers and faithful of her own Church, as she puts herself outside the ecclesiastical discipline of the latter.
“Given the negative effect of Vassula Ryden’s activities, despite some positive aspects, this Congregation requests the intervention of the Bishops so that their faithful may be suitably informed and that no opportunity may be provided in their Dioceses for the dissemination of her ideas. Lastly, the Congregation invites all the faithful not to regard Mrs. Vassula Ryden’s writings and speeches as supernatural and to preserve the purity of the faith that the Lord has entrusted to the Church.
“Vatican City, 6 October 1995.”

http://www.orthodoxchristianity.net/forum/index.php/topic,5923.15/wap2.html
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ozgeorge
Quote from: Matthew777 on April 22, 2005, 08:22:55 PM
Does she live a life of holiness and good works and is she humbled by her experience?

Ryden divorced and remarried in a civil ceremony when she started receiving her “messages”…. aside from this, even a “holy” life does not protect one from prelest (spiritual delusion), in fact, one is more likely to fall prey to it.
Teresa of Avila’s pious life does not preclude delusion either, nor does Francis of Assisi’s. Bonaventure, the biographer of Francis of Assisi describes one of Francis’s visions in which he ascends to “Heaven” and stands before “God the Father” who cannot decide who he loves more- his “Only-Begotten Son” or Francis, his son by “adoption”….

ozgeorge
Quote from: Matthew777 on April 22, 2005, 04:55:11 PM
How can you be sure of this? Do you have any evidence against her?

Matthew, Even the Roman Catholic Congregation for the Doctrine of Faith which was headed at the time by Cardinal Josef Ratzinger- the current Pope, found doctrinal errors in her “messages”. Also, why does the voice keep saying that it wants to ‘possess’ her? See http://www.orthodoxchristianity.net/newboard/index.php/topic,5925.msg76732.html#msg76732

I wonder what Fr. Seraphim of Platina would have to say about this in the light of his work: “Orthodoxy and the Religion of the Future.”

ozgeorge
Quote from: Kizzy on April 22, 2005, 05:07:20 PM
…. I also recall how St. Bernadette was dismissed by the RC for a long time…
Your point being…? The major “message” of the visions of Bernadette was that the “lady” announced who she was by the appellation: “I am the Immaculate Conception”.
Is the “Immaculate Conception” a true doctrine therefore, since it has received this “divine” approval?
The presence of unnatural phenomena such as in the cases of Lourdes, Medjugorje, Fatima etc is not necessarily evidence of divine phenomena – the “father of lies” often disguises himself as an “Angel of Light”, and can produce unnatural phenomena in his victims.

Kizzy
Quote from: ozgeorge on April 22, 2005, 11:52:43 PM
Your point being…? The major “message” of the visions of Bernadette was that the “lady” announced who she was by the appellation: “I am the Immaculate Conception”.
Is the “Immaculate Conception” a true doctrine therefore, since it has received this “divine” approval?
The presence of unnatural phenomena such as in the cases of Lourdes, Medjugorje, Fatima etc is not necessarily evidence of divine phenomena- the “father of lies” often disguises himself as an “Angel of Light”, and can produce unnatural phenomena in his victims.

Lourdes is a Holy place, where the waters have healed people miraculously… St. Bernadette was rebuffed by the church as she was illiterate, had not made her first communion, never heard of the IC, and couldn’t read or write well… She was brutally treated for her visions with the hopes she would recant her statements…
All of the 3 prophecies of Fatima came true…
As for the IC, there is an IC that is true doctrine, ever virgin and most pure, undefiled… all embodied in the Theotokos… and I believe that the apparition at Lourdes was speaking true doctrine…How the RC interprets the meaning of it is another matter… and the EO church has never sat down with the RC to discuss the topic theologically. Kizzy
ozgeorge
Quote from: Kizzy on April 23, 2005, 01:02:04 AM
As for the IC, there is an IC that is true doctrine, ever virgin and most pure, undefiled… all embodied in the Theotokos… and I believe that the apparition at Lourdes was speaking true doctrine…How the RC interprets the meaning of it is another matter… and the EO church has never sat down with the RC to discuss the topic theologically.
You’re really clutching at straws now. How many different ways can the doctrine of the IC be interpreted?
The Immaculate Conception is one of two doctrines proclaimed to be “infallible”, the other being the “Assumption”.
Pope Pius IX infallibly declared the doctrine to be: “The Blessed Virgin Mary in the first instance of her conception was preserved exempt from all stain of original sin by a singular privilege and grace granted by God, in view of the merits of Jesus Christ, the Saviour of the human race.”
Therefore, this requires a belief in Original Sin imparting guilt, and that the Theotokos (and therefore, Christ) did not live on Earth under the conditions of the Fall, and that the purity of the Theotokos was an a priori purity in which her free will played no part- as though she were a robot or puppet.
At best, the Immaculate Conception is a silly solution to a non-existent problem.

http://www.orthodoxchristianity.net/forum/index.php/topic,5923.20/wap2.html
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Hadel
Yes, also, I was taught in my household if you do, by the Grace of God, do see something supernatural or hear something supernatural, you are still to say “In the Name of God, In the Name of the Son, Jesus and in the Name of the Holy Spirit, who are you?” So I wonder if she at least asked (if True) who the person is when “speaking” to her. Hadel

Matthew777
Quote from: ozgeorge on April 22, 2005, 10:20:08 PM
Bonaventure, the biographer of Francis of Assisi describes one of Francis’s visions in which he ascends to “Heaven” and stands before “God the Father” who cannot decide who he loves more- his “Only-Begotten Son” or Francis, his son by “adoption”….
Given that we are adopted as sons of God, I would assume that the Father will love us equally in the Kingdom.
Matthew777
Quote from: ozgeorge on April 22, 2005, 11:52:43 PM
Is the “Immaculate Conception” a true doctrine therefore, since it has received this “divine” approval?
I would have to agree. Essentially, we believe the doctrine also but use different phraseology.
ozgeorge
Quote from: Matthew777 on April 23, 2005, 02:42:30 AM
I would have to agree. Essentially, we believe the doctrine also but use different phraseology.
By “we” I presume you mean the Malankara Orthodox Syrian Church.
This is certainly not what the Ecumenical Patriarch, Bartholomew believes.
Patriarch Bartholomew on the “Immaculate Conception”:
The Catholic Church found that it needed to institute a new dogma for Christendom about one thousand and eight hundred years after the appearance of the Christianity, because it had accepted a perception of original sin – a mistaken one for us Orthodox- according to which original sin passes on a moral stain or a legal responsibility to the descendants of Adam, instead of that recognized as correct by the Orthodox faith according to which the sin transmitted through inheritance the corruption, caused by the separation of mankind from the uncreated grace of God, which makes him live spiritually and in the flesh. Mankind shaped in the image of God, with the possibility and destiny of being like to God, by freely choosing love towards Him and obedience to his commandments, can even after the fall of Adam and Eve become friend of God according to intention; then God sanctifies them, as he sanctified many of the progenitors before Christ, even if the accomplishment of their ransom from corruption, that is their salvation, was achieved after the incarnation of Christ and through Him.
In consequence, according to the Orthodox faith, Mary the All-holy Mother of God was not conceived exempt from the corruption of original sin, but loved God above of all things and obeyed his commandments, and thus was sanctified by God through Jesus Christ who incarnated himself of her. She obeyed Him like one of the faithful, and addressed herself to Him with a Mother’s trust. Her holiness and purity were not blemished by the corruption, handed on to her by original sin as to every man, precisely because she was reborn in Christ like all the saints, sanctified above every saint. Her reinstatement in the condition prior to the Fall did not necessarily take place at the moment of her conception. We believe that it happened afterwards, as consequence of the progress in her of the action of the uncreated divine grace through the visit of the Holy Spirit, which brought about the conception of the Lord within her, purifying her from every stain.

As already said, original sin weighs on the descendants of Adam and of Eve as corruption, and not as legal responsibility or moral stain. The sin brought hereditary corruption and not a hereditary legal responsibility or a hereditary moral stain. In consequence the All-holy participated in the hereditary corruption, like all mankind, but with her love for God and her purity understood as an imperturbable and unhesitating dedication of her love to God alone she succeeded, through the grace of God, in sanctifying herself in Christ and making herself worthy of becoming the house of God, as God wants all us human beings to become. Therefore we in the Orthodox Church honor the All-holy Mother of God above all the saints, albeit we don’t accept the new dogma of her Immaculate Conception. The non-acceptance of this dogma in no way diminishes our love and veneration of the All-holy Mother of God. END
Only what is assumed can be saved. Christ can only save us from the consequences of the Fall if He himself lived under them. If the Theotokos did not inherit the consequences of the Fall, then neither did Christ, and therefore He could not save us from them.
Irish Hermit
Here is a website concerning Vassula Ryden which is enough to give any sane person pause
http://www.unitypublishing.com/Apparitions/Vassula.html

Also a few e-mails concerning the Cult of Vassula
http://www.unitypublishing.com/Apparitions/VassulaEmails.html

Here’s a revelation from Jesus to Vassula while she was in Russia, confirming that it will be Russia which will head a united Church. Bye, bye Rome!
http://www.krotov.org/engl/1993/ryden.html

Vassula’s prophecy about the attack on the Twin Towers as Jesus’ punishment for the evils of America
Here is the crux of Jesus said to Vassula: “How can I not breathe on these renegades My Purifying Fire? …every evil built into Towers will collapse into a heap of rubble and be buried in the dust of sin.”
This prophecy was given to Vassula on 11 September 1991 – ten years exactly before the Towers were attacked and collapsed!
Actually the whole prophecy is very heavy and is replete with Jesus’ threats of vengeance and destruction. There’s a lot of hatred in her revelations, mixed in with the sweet stuff.

http://www.orthodoxchristianity.net/forum/index.php/topic,5923.25/wap2.html
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Hadel
Thanks Irish Hermit for the readings… very interesting too.
By the way, I answered those 27 questions the way I know them as a EO and not Vassula’s words… gee no reply for two months now… I wonder why D
Anyway, I am not here to judge, but here to learn so I ask for any opinions and factual knowledge… again, I follow my heart and faith in God and something tells me this seer, well, is not all there… thanks. Hadel

lpap
The GREEK ORTHODOX CHURCH has issued the following statement (the original is in Greek) regarding Vassula:
Synodic Committee on Heresies, Sects.
The Committee, after it studied the evidence, come to conclusion that Vasoula Ryden has been deducted from the Orthodox Church, although typically she still is a member.
Additionally let it be known that regarding Vasoula Ryden’s organization there are extensive reports to Church periodical “Dialogue”. 
Vasoula asked for the conviction of the Secretary of Synodic Committee on Heresies, father Kyrjako Tsoyro for this publication for “slanderous libel”. The trial was to take place at 30. 6. 2000, however Ms Ryden withdrew the indictment two days before this day.

Kizzy
Quote from: ozgeorge on April 23, 2005, 01:18:30 AM
Kizzy, You’re really clutching at straws now. How many different ways can the doctrine of the IC be interpreted? The Immaculate Conception is one of two doctrines proclaimed to be “infallible”, the other being the “Assumption”. Pope Pius IX infallibly declared the doctrine to be: “The Blessed Virgin Mary in the first instance of her conception was preserved exempt from all stain of original sin by a singular privilege and grace granted by God, in view of the merits of Jesus Christ, the Saviour of the human race.”
Therefore, this requires a belief in Original Sin imparting guilt, and that the Theotokos (and therefore, Christ) did not live on Earth under the conditions of the Fall, and that the purity of the Theotokos was an a priori purity in which her free will played no part- as though she were a robot or puppet. At best, the Immaculate Conception is a silly solution to a non-existent problem.
Why interpret the RC doctrine… we should focus on our own which is based on “chaire kecharitomene, Hail, full of grace (Luke 1:28)” More honorable and glorious than the cherubim and seraphim… Most pure and undefiled, we magnify her… In fact her Icon looms large over all in the church, as the Mother of God.
Her free will played no part in her conception of our Lord…, which was completely bestowed by the Grace of God…
The EO  church has not had a meaningful dialogue on scripture in a long time… but we do share in the magnification of her as does the RC church… none of the Protestant faiths do this…and we believe she was pure in order to have been chosen by God…

If the RC church came to an interpretation of these words and put a name on it, so be it… if the VM said she was the IC, I take the meaning that the EO church has. “And Mary said: My soul doth magnify the Lord… “…” all generations shall call her blessed” How can her soul magnify the Lord if it is not ‘pure’? Kizzy

Matthew777
Do we not believe that the Virgin Mary was born sinless and blessed?

ozgeorge
Quote from: Kizzy on April 23, 2005, 03:21:28 PM
Why interpret the RC doctrine… we should focus on our own which is based on “chaire kecharitomene, Hail, full of grace (Luke 1:28)” More honorable and glorious than the cherubim and seraphim… Most pure and undefiled, we magnify her… In fact her Icon looms large over all in the church, as the Mother of God..
Oh well, that proves it….she must have been conceived Immaculate if her icon looms over all in your church…..
Quote from: Kizzy on April 23, 2005, 03:21:28 PM
Her free will played no part in her conception of our Lord, which was completely bestowed by the Grace of God…
Kizzy, firstly the “Immaculate Conception” does not refer to the Theotokos conceiving Christ, it refers to St. Anna’s conception of the Theotokos. Secondly, of course the Theotokos’ free will needed to co-operate with God in the Incarnation. She had to say “yes” to God, and she could have refused. Fortunately for us, she did say “yes”: “Behold the handmaid of the Lord! Be it done to me according to your word.” The Orthodox Church does not accept the Immaculate Conception of the Theotokos, period. The Orthodox Church teaches that the Theotokos inherited ‘Original Sin’. If you have a problem with this, I suggest you bring it up with the Ecumenical Patriarch. Here is his email: His All Holiness, BARTHOLOMEW, Archbishop of Constantinople, New Rome, and Ecumenical Patriarch: patriarchate@ec-patr.org;
Quote from: Kizzy on April 23, 2005, 03:21:28 PM
… if the VM said she was the IC, I take the meaning that the EO church has…
Well, there are a couple of “if’s” here. The first one is, “if” Bernadette was telling the truth…. did Bernadette actually see anything in the grotto at Lourdes? The second is, “if” she did see something, was it a hallucination or projection (i.e. ‘natural’), or was it divine or demonic in origin (‘supernatural’ or ‘paranormal’)? You seem to be assuming that the Orthodox Church has accepted Lourdes as a genuine apparition of the Theotokos. This is not so.
Here is an article on “Marian Apparitions” by Miriam Lambouras: http://orthodoxinfo.com/inquirers/marian_apparitions.aspx

http://www.orthodoxchristianity.net/forum/index.php/topic,5923.30/wap2.html
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Matthew777
Orthodox Info is automatically biased against any apparition that appears to a Roman Catholic.

ozgeorge
Quote from: Matthew777 on April 23, 2005, 08:09:04 PM
Orthodox Info is automatically biased against any apparition that appears to a Roman Catholic.

Unlike yourself, who is free of all bias?

Matthew777
Think of how the Virgin Mary appeared over the Coptic Church in Zeitun, Egypt. It should be obvious that Theotokos appears to Christians, even the Orthodox. It is wonderful that we have her with us.

ozgeorge
Quote from: Matthew777 on April 23, 2005, 08:31:49 PM
Think of how the Virgin Mary appeared over the Coptic Church in Zeitun, Egypt. It should be obvious that Theotokos appears to Christians, even the Orthodox. It is wonderful that we have her with us.
I suggest you also think about Zeitun (which my father witnessed) and compare it to Roman Catholic phenomena at Lourdes, Fatima, Garabandal and Medjugorje, etc. Unlike the Roman Catholic phenomenon, the Zeitun apparitions were witnessed by hundreds of thousands of people of all faiths, (actually they were witnessed by millions, because the apparitions at Zeitun were even televised on the news). Unlike the Roman Catholic phenomena, there were no threats of apocalyptic punishment in the Zeitun apparitions. Unlike the Roman Catholic phenomena, there was no pushing of Roman Catholic (or even Orthodox) doctrines by the Zeitun apparitions. Unlike the Roman Catholic phenomenon, people did not have to go into trance-like states to see the apparitions at Zeitun. Unlike the Roman Catholic phenomenon, the Zeitun apparitions could be photographed. The apparitions of Zeitun and the Roman Catholic apparitions could not be more different.

Matthew777
But what about the fruits? By their fruits you will know them. If the apparition encourages repentance, the Eucharist, etc., how can it be evil?

http://www.orthodoxchristianity.net/forum/index.php/topic,5923.35/wap2.html
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Kizzy
Quote from: ozgeorge on April 23, 2005, 07:37:03 PM
Kizzy, firstly the “Immaculate Conception” does not refer to the Theotokos conceiving Christ, it refers to St. Anna’s conception of the Theotokos.

The RC believe that St. Anna’s conception of the Theotokos was a normal conception according to the laws of nature, the IC does not refer to her physical conception…The RC definition is that  the IC  refers to her soul  sent by God  as immaculate. However, my point is that the RC definition of the IC has little to do with anything in this discussion… it is just their interpretation of scripture and now you’ve quoted the EP’s statement and interpretation… so we’ve got two hierarchs using different words on the blessedness and purity  of Mary… This topic was never discussed in Ecumenical council and for most of the church’s history there was no discussion on Mary that went into detail on how her soul and body were joined together… it was left ‘open to further interpretation’ by the faithful… The EP is only compelled to state something now  in reaction to the RC church attempt at further defining Mary… but the church has no official statement from it’s early days stating that she is not Immaculate…
Her appearance in Lourdes was experienced by many others similar to other phenomena in Egypt as flashes of light and was also accompanied by miracles… Zeitun only confirms the ability for apparitions to be seen and for her to appear in other that EO churches… and just because those were ‘photographed’ and seen by millions doesn’t mean all apparitions have to be the same way…  I saw the weeping icon of the Theotokos on Long Island at the St. Paul’s Cathedral when I was young… I’m telling you words cannot describe that which is out of this world… which is why volumes have been written and still it is not enough to describe things with complete clarity for all… Kizzy
ozgeorge
Quote from: Matthew777 on April 23, 2005, 10:11:40 PM
But what about the fruits? By their fruits you will know them. If the apparition encourages repentance, the Eucharist, etc., how can it be evil?

Firstly, let me say at the outset that I do not doubt the sincerity of faith of those who accept Lourdes, Garabandal, Fatima, Medjugorje as divinely sent apparitions. And yes, this faith has led many to moral conversion, ascesis (yes, even fasting) and prayer. But since you have asked that we look at their fruits, let’s examine all their fruits:
The Fruits of Lourdes:
On this very thread, a daughter of the Orthodox Church now questions the Orthodox doctrine that the Theotokos was conceived under the conditions of Original Sin. The fruits of Lourdes include confusion over not only the doctrines concerning the Theotokos, but also of Christ. The “Lady” who appeared at Lourdes “confirmed” the Roman Catholic doctrine that the Theotokos was not conceived inheriting the conditions of the Fall, and if she did not inherit the conditions of the Fall then neither did Christ. This requires a major alteration of Orthodox Christology. The fruits of Lourdes therefore include heresy.
The Fruits of Fatima:
The apparition of Fatima not only insisted on devotion to the “Immaculate Heart of Mary” it also insisted on “reparation” being made to it. “Penance” must be made to “atone” to the “Immaculate Heart of Mary” for offenses committed against it. The Orthodox view of sin is that it is a spiritual illness requiring the medicine of confession and correction. The Orthodox do not accept a doctrine of “penance” providing a “satisfaction” to God for sin. This is the legalistic, and judicial view of sin. And even if we accept this view, is the Theotokos now a goddess or a fourth Hypostasis of the Holy Trinity that “reparation” for sin must now be made to her “Immaculate Heart”? The fruits of Fatima therefore include an idolatry of the Theotokos.
The “lady” of Fatima also insisted that Russia should be “consecrated to her Immaculate Heart” by which means she said “Russia will be converted and there will be peace”. How do Roman Catholic Followers of Fatima interpret this? Well according to Father Nicholas Gruner, the founder and Director of the International Fatima Rosary Crusade:
“The imminent recrudescence of Eastern Rite Catholicism should have been an occasion of great joy in the objective order of things, but for the schismatic Orthodox hierarchy, which had for so long enjoyed the use of Communist plunder, it was a grave emergency: several cathedrals and some 2,000 parish properties were already in dispute in Romania and the Ukraine, not to mention a potentially vast loss of forcibly-acquired adherents. The resulting hue and cry clearly posed a threat to the progress of Ostpolitik and world ecumenism in “the former Soviet Union.” Consider: The Balamand Statement implicitly claims that when Our Lady spoke of the conversion of Russia, She, and therefore Her Divine Son, were espousing an “out-dated ecclesiology of return to the Catholic Church”. Contrary to Our Lord and Our Lady, Balamand teaches that “in the search for re-establishing unity there is no question of conversion of people from one Church to the other in order to insure their salvation.” Yet Our Lady of Fatima did speak unambiguously of the conversion of Russia to the Catholic faith, did She not?”
So according to Fr. Gruner, the “Lady” of Fatima insists that the only way in which Russia can be saved is by converting to Catholicism, and the way to do this is through the Uniate Churches. The fruits of Fatima include the current strife and disastrous and shameful situation of the Uniate Churches in Russia for which the Balamand Agreement had to come into being. The fruits of Fatima therefore include increased tension and strife between the Roman Catholic and Orthodox Churches.
The Fruits of Garabandal:
Garabandal has three main prophecies: a worldwide warning, a miracle at the site of the apparitions, and a worldwide chastisement. Neither of these prophesies have been fulfilled yet, which is interesting because the “Lady” told the seers of Garabandal that the “miracle” would be witnessed by Padre Pio and by the Third Pope to be elected since the prophesies of the “Lady” of Garabandal (i.e. Pope John Paul II). Both Padre Pio and Pope John Paul II died without seeing any miracle of Garabandal. The fruits of Garabandal therefore include the fact that the “Lady” is a false prophet.

The Fruits of Medjugorje:
Let me tell you a little fact which is not known about Medjugorje because it is not widely publicized in our media in the West (reasons which will become obvious).
The apparitions of Medjugorje began on 24th of June 1981. This date is significant because exactly 40 years and three days before this date, the site of the Apparitions in Medjugorje was the scene of a slaughter 600 Orthodox Christians including monks and priests.
In the village of Medjugorje, on the other side of the “hill of Apparition” is a mass grave. Until 1989, this mass grave contained the remains of some 600 Orthodox Serbs who were slaughtered by the Ustashi under the supervision and with the assistance of the local Franciscans. These Orthodox Serbs had taken refuge in the Zitomislici Orthodox Monastery that once stood in Medjugorje. Why do I say “once stood”? Because in 1993 (twelve years after the “Lady” started appearing in Medjugorje) Croats, not Albanian extremists, but Roman Catholics from Medjugorje completely destroyed the monastery of Zitomislici, expelling its monastics and razing it to the ground. Here is an excerpt of a letter of protest to Pope John Paul II about this written by two Professors of the School of Comparative Religion Haverford College, PA.
Quote: Large crosses were also placed in front and above the Zitomislici Orthodox Monastery to mark its annihilation. In 1993 by Catholic militia groups operating out of the Virgin Mary pilgrimage site of Medjugorje attacked the ancient monastery, killed or expelled the its priests, monks, and nuns, drove away in terror the Orthodox Christian population of the area, and dynamited and burned the historic buildings. With great effort and both local and international support from all religious traditions, the Zitomislici complex is being rebuilt. The major officials of BiH have come together with the Islamic religious leader and the Orthodox bishop at this moment on reconciliation and renewal. Only Bishop Peric was absent, declaring he refused to be part of such events. The destruction of Zitomislici by Medjugorje based Catholic militias, the killing of its monk and priests, the expulsion of its Orthodox population, as well as the construction of large Latin crosses above and in front of the site are all documented on the extensive an Zitomislici documentation site. At the same site you will find photos of the ceremony inaugurating the reconstruction of the historic monastery complex, with representatives from the Islamic and Orthodox churches, the Jewish community, the Office of the High Representative for Bosnia-Herzegovina, and the Bosnia-Herzegovinan commission for heritage revitalization in accordance with Annex VIII of the Dayton peace agreement. Unfortunately, though Catholics of good will participated in the ceremony as individuals, no official representatives of the Diocese or of the local Franciscan community is to be found. Bishop Peric boycotted the event and refused to send any representative in his place.
Holy Father, you have intervened in other cases where you judged a change was necessary; in Central America and in North America you removed bishops you felt were acting outside the guidelines. For ten years, the Diocese of Mostar and the Franciscan run pilgrimage site have supported religious exclusion and have either supported the extremist militias directly or have refused to condemn their atrocities, with only a couple minor exceptions. Even today, the Church at Medjugorje is decorated with a large banner based upon the flag of Croatia, even though Medjugorje is in Bosnia-Hercegovina. The banner signals that the Medjugorje friars support the illegal and banned “herzeg bosna”, a self-proclaimed and illegal all-Catholic territory that will be merged with Croatia proper.
The “Lady” of Medjugorje calls herself the “Queen of Peace”. Yet she has brought and inspired anything but peace to Bosnia-Hercegovina. The fruit of the “Queen of Peace” of Medjugorje has been nothing but civil strife and civil war with an inhuman violence not seen in Europe since WWII, based on the Croatian Nationalism and Roman Catholic exclusivity she inspires in a land outside Croatia.

Matthew777
How would you explain the sun dancing at Fatima? Pope John Paul II accepted that Russia converted by abandoning communism, which is the official position of the Vatican. As for Medjugorje, I’ve known for quite a while the bloody history surrounding the area. However, Mary brings a message of peace, reconciliation, and toleration between Orthodox Christians and Roman Catholics, and between other religious groups. Perhaps she is appearing so that humanity may heal.
As for Lourdes, too many miraculous healings have happened for me to doubt it. I’m sorry but a contradiction with Orthodox doctrine is not good enough. She appeared to a Roman Catholic girl and presented herself in a way that such a person would understand.
ozgeorge
Quote from: Matthew777 on April 24, 2005, 01:30:43 AM
How would you explain the sun dancing at Fatima?

Did the sun dance at Fatima? Not everyone in the Cova saw the Sun dance. Let’s look at some eyewitness accounts from the time
Quote
Avelino de Almeida
The journalist Avelino de Almeida, worked for the newspaper founded in 1881 by Magalh Lima, Grand Master of the Masons, and whose director J.J. Silva, kept an editorial line of free thinking. Avelino had been in a seminary and left, but he hadn’t abandoned the Catholic faith. In this first article, he distances himself from the apparitions, which he presents as a consequence of “the great tribulations that society was going through. The times of great tribulations have always favored the rebirth of religious ideas and the war adds to their expansion creating a fertile environment.” Avelino de Almeida says that he saw “the sun dance”, but his fellow reporter, the photographer, Judah Ruah, nephew of the famous photographer Joshua Benoliel, who worked with him, saw nothing. Why? According to him, because nothing strange happened to the Sun. When he saw all those people kneeling, he understood that it was the happening and that is why he photographed it.

The same phenomenon happens at Medjugorje today, some see the Sun dance, some don’t. There are many possible explanations for this- mass hysteria, autosuggestion, but one concerning possibility is this:
“And I beheld another beast coming up out of the earth; and he had two horns like a lamb, and he spake as a dragon…And he exerciseth all the power of the first beast before him, and causeth the earth and them which dwell therein to worship the first beast, whose deadly wound was healed. And he doeth great wonders, so that he maketh fire come down from heaven on the earth in the sight of men” (Revelation 13:11-13).
Just because a “miracle” is seen does not mean it necessarily comes from God. We cannot discount demonic influence.
Quote from: Matthew777 on April 24, 2005, 01:30:43 AM
Pope John Paul II accepted that Russia converted by abandoning communism, which is the official position of the Vatican.
Could you provide some quotes or links to support this assertion?
Quote from: Matthew777 on April 24, 2005, 01:30:43 AM
As for Medjugorje, I’ve known for quite a while the bloody history surrounding the area. However, Mary brings a message of peace, reconciliation, and toleration between Orthodox Christians and Roman Catholics, and between other religious groups. Perhaps she is appearing so that humanity may heal.

If this is the case, why did Catholics from Medjugorje destroy a nearby Orthodox Monastery and drive out the monastics and surrounding Orthodox community there after listening to the daily messages of the “Lady” for 12 years?
Quote from: Matthew777 on April 24, 2005, 01:30:43 AM
As for Lourdes, too many miraculous healings have happened for me to doubt it. I’m sorry but a contradiction with Orthodox doctrine is not good enough. She appeared to a Roman Catholic girl and presented herself in a way that such a person would understand.
It might surprise you to know that of the millions who pilgrimaged to Lourdes that in the 122 years between 1858 and 1980, only 64 cures were proclaimed miraculous by the Roman Catholic Church itself.
Pentecostal and Charismatic groups report more miracles on a monthly basis than that- is this evidence for the “truth” of Pentecostalism?
Matthew777
Given that the Vatican would be as skeptical as possible about the cures, I’d assume that much more than that number have occurred.

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Thomas
I read in a Catholic Magazine about 5-6 years ago an interview with Sister Lucia, one of the seers, who noted that the rejection of Communism by the Russian People and the return to the Orthodox Church and its true veneration of the Mother of God was the interpretation of the vision as she understands it today.  She said that at the time of the visions that some things did not make sense in the doctrine of the Roman Catholic Church of the time, but felt that with Vatican II that many of the visions provided became much clearer in meaning, like the conversion of Russia not to Catholicism but to the Church as an entity. I wish I could give you the Citation, but I am not Roman Catholic and read the article in a Dentist’s office possibly in the Catholic Digest or some such magazine.  Sister Lucia’s revelation of this interpretation brought her under some scorn by some of the more conservative “Armies” of Mary groups that espouse dark meanings to the secrets of the Fatima Visions. Thomas

ozgeorge
Let me provide you with a few more Roman Catholic citations to show you the “fruits” of Fatima include a belief that Russia can only be saved by converting to Roman Catholicism. Are the multiplicity and variety of these citations a result of the “good seed” which the “Lady” sowed at Fatima? If, as Matthew777 says, we should judge an alleged apparition by it’s fruits, then here are some of the fruits of Fatima:
From the Christus Rex website: “If we do not heed Our Lady’s warnings soon, the Her horrible prophesy may well be realized in the near future, even in our own back yards. She told us that God had chosen to use Russia as the instrument of chastisement to punish the whole world if we did not, by our obedience, prayers, and sacrifices, obtain conversion of Russia to the Catholic faith.” http://www.christusrex.org/www1/apparitions/pr00011.htm

James Likoudis, President-Emeritus of the International Catholics United for the Faith (CUF) and a noted writer on catechetics, sex education, and historical theology. He is also a convert to Roman Catholicism from Greek Orthodoxy writes:
“Many who have labored for the union of the Church after Our Lady’s 1917 prophecy that “Russia will be converted,” have understood it as predicting not only the end of a vicious atheistic Communist rule in Russia, the heartland of the Soviet Empire, but the fulfillment of hopes and dreams for a Catholic Russia. In 1856 the aristocrat-convert Ivan Sergievitch Gagarin, who had become a Jesuit, published a book, “Will Russia become Catholic?” which excited much interest in the possible reunion of the churches. Despite the conversion of a number of prominent Russian individuals and intellectuals to Catholicism, it was corporate reunion that the Popes have always sought with the East, and it is the corporate reunion of entire churches under their patriarchs and Bishops that the Second Vatican Council certainly desired to promote.”
http://credo.stormloader.com/Ecumenic/fatima.htm

Fr. Joaquin Alonso (the official archivist of Fatima), who had talked with Sister Lucy (one of the Fatima visionaries) “many times”:

“the ‘conversion’ of Russia is not to be limited to the return of the Russian people to the Orthodox Christian religions, rejecting the Marxist atheism of the Soviets, but rather, it refers purely, plainly and simply to the total, integral conversion of Russia to the one true Church of Christ, the Catholic Church.” http://www.tldm.org/News7/ConversionOfRussia.htm

Fr. Kramer of Our Lady’s Fatima Apostolate:
The conversion of Russia is identified by Our Lady of Fatima as the very Triumph of Her Immaculate Heart, the focal point of the Message of Fatima. Amazingly, the Ratzinger commentary on the Triumph of the Immaculate Heart in the Vatican booklet on the Secret makes no reference whatever to the conversion of Russia to the Catholic Faith. This conversion of Russia has apparently been written out of the Message of Fatima, never to be mentioned again by the Vatican. Meanwhile, the abortion rate has soared in Russia, its government is dominated by atheistic ‘ex-communists’ and recycled KGB agents, and Russian society is falling to pieces. www.fatima.org/news/newsviews/thirdsecret06.asp

If you want a more ‘traditional’ (or what some people like to call ‘orthodox’) Roman Catholic position, how about ‘Tradition in Action’: which has this article:
“The Myth of a Converted Russia Exposed” By Marian T. Horvat, Ph.D. Published in Catholic Family News, March 2001, and the Daily Catholic , February 21, 2002.
“There is a myth that is being spun in Catholic public opinion, a fable about ‘the new springtime of graces’ blowing into Russia since Communism supposedly fell in the 1980’s. Catholic magazines like Inside the Vatican have played their part in nourishing the myth by featuring optimistic stories on great movements of religion and conversion, the fulfillment of the prophecies of Our Lady at Fatima in 1917 Never mind that what is ’emerging from the catacombs’ are the Schismatic [Orthodox] Churches, not the Roman Catholic Faith.” http://www.traditioninaction.org/HotTopics/b007ht.htm

Justionios
I have heard that even the Bad-one can sent massage to humans, and that even if you see an angel you can never now if it is God angel or not? Maybe Vassula and the Latins are deceived?

Matthew777
Here’s the deal: We are only human. Therefore, if we come into contact with the divine or the Theotokos, some level of interpretation will creep in. I mean, the seer will attempt to explain the apparition as she understands it from the vantage point of her particular belief system. If the Virgin Mary appeared to a Catholic, she would be explained in Catholic terms. Likewise, if she appeared to an Orthodox Christian, she would be explained in Orthodox terms. Know what I mean?

Kizzy
Quote from: Matthew777 on April 24, 2005, 08:57:41 PM
Here’s the deal: We are only human. Therefore, if we come into contact with the divine or the Theotokos, some level of interpretation will creep in. I mean, the seer will attempt to explain the apparition as she understands it from the vantage point of her particular belief system. If the Virgin Mary appeared to a Catholic, she would be explained in Catholic terms. Likewise, if she appeared to an Orthodox Christian, she would be explained in Orthodox terms. Know what I mean?
Matthew, Amen! That is what I’ve been trying to say. To say “I am the Immaculate Conception” does not mean Catholic doctrine… Mary represents the Immaculate conception of Our Lord… She didn’t say; here’s what I mean…’ and provide the Catholic definition… It is the RC church that transposed their doctrine on her words… Everyone sees the world through their own paradigm… and an Atheist seeing the vision and doves at Zeitun might just say it was a UFO… Kizzy

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Matthew777
I would agree with you. Furthermore, if Mary were actually conceived without ancestral sin, then wouldn’t her acceptance of the conception of Jesus have less meaning? Would that still have been as much of an act of free will?

ozgeorge
Quote from: Kizzy on April 25, 2005, 01:04:59 AM
…Mary represents the Immaculate conception of Our Lord….She didn’t say; here’s what i mean…’ and provide the Catholic definition…
Christ said: “I AM the Resurrection and the Life”- did He mean “I represent the Resurrection and the Life”?
Christ said: “I AM the Way, the Truth and the Life”- did He mean “I represent the Way the Truth and the Life.”
The “lady” of Lourdes said: “I AM the Immaculate Conception”, if she means “I represent the Immaculate Conception of Christ” then why didn’t the Holy Spirit appear with her and they both say “We ARE the Immaculate Conception.” for we say that we believe that Christ was “incarnate of the Holy Spirit and born of the Virgin Mary.”
If this is what the “lady” of Lourdes means as you claim, then she seems to be taking sole credit for the Incarnation of Christ. Not only would this be heresy, but also blasphemy of the Holy Spirit. The “lady” of Lourdes would therefore be guilty of the sin “for which there is no forgiveness either in this world or the next.”
Doesn’t sound very “lady-like” to me!

Matthew777
Didn’t Mor Ephrem believe in the Immaculate Conception?

ozgeorge
Didn’t St. Gregory of Nyssa believe in apokatasis? Does this make it Orthodox doctrine?

Ecumenical
I would like to read your own opinions and thoughts about this matter. http://www.tlig.org/index.html

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Jennifer
I don’t have an opinion about Vassula Ryden but part of the reason I left Roman Catholicism is to get away from the conservative Catholic obsession with Marian apparitions. I understand that Vassula Ryden is part of that ‘world’ with the Medjugorje fraud. 

ozgeorge
This thread already exists here: http://www.orthodoxchristianity.net/newboard/index.php/topic,5923.0.html

And there is more here: http://www.orthodoxchristianity.net/newboard/index.php/topic,5923.0.html

Let’s not give this poor deluded soul any more attention than required.

Matthew777
On Sunday, the priest’s wife, the deacon and I had a conversation on the Orthodox position on the Immaculate Conception. She said that it undermines Mary’s free will in accepting the conception and therefore, makes the act itself less meaningful.
On the other hand, she finds it to be a private theologoumena which would can believe, like Mor Ephrem, but is unnecessary to believe.
Kizzy
Quote from: Matthew777 on April 27, 2005, 10:12:43 PM
On the other hand, she finds it to be a private theologoumena which would can believe, like Mor Ephrem, but is unnecessary to believe.
For most of church history the details of the conception of Mary were not specified by the church and the faithful were left to a ‘private theologoumena’.  It is only in reaction to the RC doctrine that the subject has become one of discussion. However, early writings of the church Fathers reveal a belief in her conception as immaculate- Several of the church Fathers in fact spoke of Mary as immaculate- St. Ephraem and also St. John of Damascus, to name a few. Kizzy
ozgeorge
Quote from: Kizzy on April 27, 2005, 11:16:24 PM
However, early writings of the church Fathers reveal a belief in her conception as immaculate- Several of the church Fathers in fact spoke of Mary as immaculate- St. Ephraem and also St. John of Damascus, to name a few.

Quote them please. Even the Orthodox Church calls the Theotokos “Immaculate”. She is called “Immaculate” and “Spotless” and “Pure”. But where is she said to have been conceived Immaculate? You’re complicating a very simple question Kizzy. The question is, did the Theotokos (and therefore the Human Nature of Christ) inherit the conditions of the Fall? The Orthodox say “yes”, the Roman Catholics say “no.” It’s that simple.

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Kizzy
St. Ephraem- “Most holy Lady, Mother of God, alone most pure in soul and body, alone exceeding all perfection of purity …., alone made in thy entirety the home of all the graces of the Most Holy Spirit, and hence exceeding beyond all compare even the angelic virtues in purity and sanctity of soul and body… my Lady most holy, all-pure, all-immaculate, all-stainless, all-undefiled, all-incorrupt, all-inviolate spotless robe of Him Who clothes Himself with light as with a garment… flower unfading, purple woven by God, alone most immaculate”.
The angel Gabriel said, “Hail, full of grace, the Lord is with you” (Luke 1:28). The phrase “full of grace” is a translation of the Greek word kecharitomene. It therefore expresses a characteristic quality of Mary.
‘Full of grace’ is very explicit and is not used to describe anyone else- not St. John the Baptist, or St. Anne… There is something different about the Theotokos as represented by all the language used to describe her in the HB. Kizzy
Fr. George
Kizzy, I fail to see where this quote asserts that she was conceived immaculately. The Fathers do not say she was conceived immaculately because the Orthodox understanding of Sin and the fall makes it unnecessary for her to be conceived immaculately.

ozgeorge
Quote from: cleveland on April 28, 2005, 12:36:42 AM
I fail to see where this quote asserts that she was conceived immaculately. The Fathers do not say she was conceived immaculately because the Orthodox understanding of Sin and the fall makes it unnecessary for her to be conceived immaculately.
Exactly. The “immaculate Conception is a stupid solution to a non-existent problem. If the Theotokos was conceived in exactly the same way all of us are conceived, why does she require the “singular privilege” of an “Immaculate Conception” as defined by Roman Catholics doctrine? In order to reconcile this with Orthodox Doctrine, we would have to say that everyone is conceived immaculate. And there is the further point that if the Theotokos did not inherit the consequences of the Ancestral Fall (“Original Sin”), then neither did the Human Nature of Christ. How then did they both come to experience the death of the body? And how can Christ save us from the consequences of the Fall by His Death and Resurrection if He Himself did not did not inherit them in His Human Nature taken from the Theotokos?

lpap
Quote from: ozgeorge on April 27, 2005, 03:48:59 PM
Didn’t St. Gregory of Nyssa believe in apokatasis? Does this make it Orthodox doctrine?

I think that he did not, not in the context you are referring. He has talked about “apokatastasis” in the context of Acts 3:21 “whom heaven must receive until the period of restoration of all things about which God spoke by the mouth of His holy prophets from ancient time.” – (Greek original: {not intelligible -Michael})

Brother ozgeorge, you can find an essay for this issue here: http://www.pelagia.org/htm/b24.en.life_after_death.08.htm#re2

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ozgeorge
Here is an example of St. Gregory of Nyssa’s apokatastasis:
‘The avenging flame will be the more ardent the more it has to consume…But at last the evil will be annihilated, and the bad saved by nearness to the good.’ St. Gregory of Nyssa, On The Soul and Resurrection

Augustine
Kizzy, Quote
St. Ephraem- “Most holy Lady, Mother of God, alone most pure in soul and body, alone exceeding all perfection of purity …., alone made in thy entirety the home of all the graces of the Most Holy Spirit, and hence exceeding beyond all compare even the angelic virtues in purity and sanctity of soul and body . . . . my Lady most holy, all-pure, all-immaculate, all-stainless, all-undefiled, all-incorrupt, all-inviolate spotless robe of Him Who clothes Himself with light as with a garment . … flower unfading, purple woven by God, alone most immaculate”.
And alas, not a word of this equals the Latin dogma of the “Immaculate Conception.”
Quote
The angel Gabriel said, “Hail, full of grace, the Lord is with you” (Luke 1:28). The phrase “full of grace” is a translation of the Greek word kecharitomene. It therefore expresses a characteristic quality of Mary.
‘Full of grace’ is very explicit and is not used to describe anyone else- not St. John the Baptist, or St. Anne… There is something different about the Theotokos as represented by all the language used to describe her in the HB.
You need to stop reading Latin propaganda/apologetical materials, and delve more into the mind of the Church on this matter.  I say this, because your whole line of argumentation sounds like something I would have been pushing a few years ago when I actually was a Roman Catholic!  This is almost word for word what you’ll find in a “Catholic Answers” tract.
As Bl. Justin of Serbia said “Papism is the oldest Protestantism.”  Whether it be the Filioque clause, papal infallibility, or the Immaculate Conception, these are all late coming doctrines whose justification is found through proof texting; which is precisely what Protestants do.  The apple does not fall from the tree, and the only thing which separates the two (Catholicism and Protestantism), is that the former will use a broader well of materials (sources besides the Bible) to concoct their novelties, and has a singular, authoritarian “final interpreter” who when he decides, can endorse one view over another.
The Latins are in this mess, because of their errors regarding grace, and the nature of redemption.  As such, they have incorrect views about the original/ancestral sin, what it is to be “redeemed in Christ”, and as a result, just what was true of the “Old Testament Saints.”  In fact this is precisely why, while the pre-schism Latins had the Holy Prophets of the Old Testament on their calendar and made Icons of them, they dropped this in the years following their schism from Orthodoxy.  I don’t think it’s coincidental at all, but reflects their errors on this subject.
Basically, the Latins don’t think highly of Old Testament Saints.  I’m not saying they loath them, but they don’t know what to make of them.  For example, that the righteous ones who lived before the Advent of Christ could attain divinization, and behold the uncreated Light, and taste profound depths of grace, just doesn’t sit well with their view of “original sin”, which would seem to preclude this.
Orthodoxy has no problem with any of this; what changed with the coming of our Lord, is that He trampled death, “ontologically destroying death” as Metropolitan Hierotheos puts it in his writings, and established the way for men to become true members of His very Body.  Thus, why those who repose blessed by God now do not descend into Hades; and also why the grace of God abounds all the more amongst men.
As such, the Mother of God does not need to be fundamentally “different” from the other righteous ones of the Old Testament.  In fact, as St. John Maximovitch writes in his little booklet on the Mother of God, the Latin doctrine of the “Immaculate Conception” is actually an implied slight against Her; for it fails to recognize that She became as She was, because of Her life long piety, perfect chastity, and profound asceticism.  The Mother of God is the greatest of hesychasts, and was such before this way was widely known amongst men (and had been only known and practiced amongst certain of the “schools of Prophets”, who lived lives not much different from those of New Testament monastics – St. John the Baptist was the last of this type of Old Testament Prophet.)
I have to side with our Church and St. John in particular who is a modern Saint that addressed specifically this heterodox teaching.  Normally I’m not this insistent, but the Latin “I.C.” doctrine is not simply problematic because it is imposed as a dogma, but it’s outright erroneous.  Thus it’s not even a “theological opinion” to be tolerated.  It’s heresy, and if memory serves, was one of the things I had to renounce (along with the “filioque”, papal infallibility & universal jurisdiction, and satan) during my entrance into the catechumenate.

Irish Hermit
Quote from: Irish Hermit on April 23, 2005, 04:35:13 AM
Vassula’s prophecy about the attack on the Twin Towers as Jesus’ punishment for the evils of America

Here is the crux of Jesus said to Vassula: “How can I not breathe on these renegades My Purifying Fire? …every evil built into Towers will collapse into a heap of rubble and be buried in the dust of sin.” This prophecy was given to Vassula on 11 September 1991 – ten years exactly before the Towers were attacked and collapsed! Actually the whole prophecy is very heavy and is replete with Jesus’ threats of vengeance and destruction. There’s a lot of hatred in her revelations, mixed in with the sweet stuff.
Who is this NULL who had added these four paragraphs into my message??!!
And how did he or she manage to do it back in 1969 when I wrote the message only two days ago!!!
Last Edit: 31 December 1969, 19:00:00 by NULL

prodromos
What say the log files Bobby? Has the board been hacked or perhaps a back door has been inadvertently left open?
Hermit, it might be an idea to report the post (even though it is your own) so all the admin’s get an email regarding your post’s modification. John

Fr. Anastasios
That problem has been around since the last time Bobby upgraded.  I asked him to fix it awhile ago but with him working full time and going to school full time don’t expect it to be fixed any time soon. Anastasios

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Salpy
I know she has been discussed before, but I can’t find the threads. Does anyone know if books, booklets, or any other kind of literature have been published refuting her?  I know there are websites which criticise her, but I am looking for something I can hand out to people. 
Unfortunately, there are women at my church who are getting into her. My priest tells people she’s not legitimate. I also have handed people things printed out from the internet, including the letter criticising her written by the current pope back when he was a cardinal. However, she still has a very strong draw and the standard reply is that those who oppose her are deceived by the devil. 
There is currently a “Bible study” being run by one of her followers not too far from our church. A friend of mine who does not believe in Vassula was invited to it by a woman who used to go to our church.  My friend went out of curiosity. She said they didn’t study the Bible at all, just Vassula’s writings.  She said the woman who was running it was an Armenian Orthodox who said she attends Catholic masses, even though she is Orthodox. The woman also emphasized the need to say the Catholic rosary, gave out booklets on how to do the rosary, and spoke about how Vassula has converted to Catholicism now. This is the first I have heard of Vassula converting to Catholicism.
Now I want people to know I am not “anti-Catholic.”  I have friends and relatives who are Catholic, I am a great admirer of many Catholic saints and heroes (such as Mother Teresa) and I personally see nothing wrong with the rosary, although I don’t think it is really appropriate for the Armenian Orthodox to say it, when we have so many wonderful, ancient prayers of our own. However, I was really concerned about what my friend told me about her experience.  It is bad enough that people are being taken in by a woman whom I consider to be a fraud.  However, I am sensing an agenda to bring people from the Orthodox Churches to Catholicism.  I know her messages have a lot to do with “unity.”  My experience has been that when certain people promote “unity” they are really talking about the people from one church converting to the other church. Anyway, I would really appreciate it if anyone knew of some good literature which refutes Vassula.

FrChris
Lord have mercy! My local parish had one of these Ryden Den of Vipers a few years ago. It was strange… this pack knew to not discuss their secret meetings with our parish priest since apparently they feared he would disapprove, yet they would recruit other sin our parish because they wanted to spread the word about her. So, like others trapped in wrongdoing and sin, they know enough to hide their activities yet try to drag others into their situation…
I recently came across this site, which has among other items the 1995 ‘Notification’ about Ms. Ryden from the Congregation for the Doctrine of the Faith. This is helpful since it shows many of the problems Ms. Ryden is presenting as part of her True Life In God movement: http://www.mypage.bluewin.ch/cafarus/tlignotification1.htm

concluding paragraph:
“Given the negative effect of Vassula Ryden’s activities, despite some positive aspects, this Congregation requests the intervention of the Bishops so that their faithful may be suitably informed and that no opportunity may be provided in their Dioceses for the dissemination of her ideas. Lastly, the Congregation invites all the faithful not to regard Mrs. Vassula Ryden’s writings and speeches as supernatural and to preserve the purity of the faith that the Lord has entrusted to the Church.”

Vatican City, 6 October 1995
Now, various people in league with Ms. Ryden have argued that this ‘Notification’ has been retracted, but the above site shows that this is not the case. (This above document was signed by a certain Cardinal Ratzinger, btw…)
One of the pages within the attached site is titled:
“Eternal condemnation of those who oppose the TLIG messages” and has the following excerpt:
“As we have seen previously, TLIG’s definition of these sins is modified in order to include whoever openly opposes the messages. It does so by affirming from the start that the messages are divine (in open contradiction with the Catholic Church’s Notifications and the position of the Greek Orthodox Church) and that therefore to oppose them is to refuse God and Salvation.”

The fact that Ms. Ryden is apparently inventing her own doctrine and threatening ‘eternal punishment’ for any who disagree with her should set off HUGE WARNING SIRENS in any rational person’s head. The website is mainly Catholic-oriented, but at least it does acknowledge that the Orthodox Church has not accepted her ‘pronouncements’ either.

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Salpy
Thanks for the info. You said the Vassula group at your church was around “a few years ago.”  Did something happen to disband them? I am assuming your priest found out about it. How did he handle it when he found out? I also want to ask if anyone knows of any official written church statements that have been issued about her, besides the Vatican Notification.  I’d like a link or a copy of anything issued by an Orthodox (EO or OO) priest, bishop or patriarch.  I keep hearing that the Greek Orthodox Patriarch excommunicated her, but I have never found any document which shows that.
I have been reading some of her “messages” which are on her website.  It’s such drivel.  Some of the messages seem latently sexual in nature.  This is one disturbed woman.

The young fogey
Mrs Ryden seems to market to Roman Catholics but she, her teachings and messages have no standing in any church. She simply happens to have been born Greek Orthodox. Don’t know if she’s been formally excommunicated.

prodromos
Quote from: Salpy on July 17, 2006, 06:14:32 PM
I keep hearing that the Greek Orthodox Patriarch excommunicated her, but I have never found any document which shows that.
http://www.ecclesia.gr/greek/holysynod/commitees/heresies/heresies-0008.htm

Here’s a bit of the link translated into English
Synodal Commission on Heresies and Sects.
“The Commission, having examined the evidence, has reached the conclusion that Vasoula Ryden is excommunicated from the Orthodox Church, although she still presents herself as a member.
“In addition it should be known that the Church periodical “Dialogue” has printed extensive reports regarding Vasoula Ryden’s organisation.
“Vasoula has asked the Greek Minister of Justice to bring to trial for slander and libel both the Secretary of the Greek Orthodox Synodal Commission on Heresies, Fr Kyriako Tsoiro, and the Church publication. The trial was scheduled for 30 June 2000; however Ryden withdrew the charge two days before the trial was due to commence.

Salpy
Prodromos, This will be a great help.  Did you do the translation yourself, or was it online?  If it is online, can I have the link?  Also, the translation tells about a Church periodical called “Dialogue,” which has printed reports about Vassula.  Is that, by any luck, on line and is there an English version of it?  I know it is a lot to hope for, but you never know.

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Salpy
For the sake of being complete, I thought I would post a link to the other thread which I couldn’t find earlier:
http://www.orthodoxchristianity.net/forum/index.php?topic=5925.from1123478395;topicseen

prodromos
It was posted by Fr Ambrose on the Catholic Answers forum originally and I think the translating was his own work, though he may have gotten it from elsewhere. John.

Salpy
A Vassula follower who has tried recruiting people from my church before is at it again.  This time she is claiming that Pope Shenouda has just recently endorsed Vassula and her messages.
Now I know this can’t possibly be true.  However, I know that one of the tactics used by this heretic and her people is to claim that various church leaders have endorsed her when they have not. 
The reason I am writing this is to see if anyone has anything specifically by Pope Shenouda dealing with her.  I know that a little while back the metropolitan of the British Orthodox Church wrote a notice telling people to stay away from her.  Also, the Greek Orthodox Church has excommunicated her and Pope Benedict has written against her.  I want to know, however, if anyone knows of anything directly from Pope Shenouda. 
Here’s a link to a thread I started about her last summer:
http://www.orthodoxchristianity.net/forum/index.php/topic,9511.0.html

Salpy
http://www.britishorthodox.org/113b.php

Above is a link to the memorandum about Vassula written by His Eminence Abba Seraphim of the British Orthodox Church.  It’s toward the bottom of the page.

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minasoliman
At this moment, HH Pope Shenouda seems to be tired and ill.  God willing though, the Coptic Church will not be silent.  Mina

Kreator
Vassula Ryden is 100% genuine. This comes from an Athonite monk.

Fr. Anastasios
Which Athonite monk believes that a syncretist like Vassula is genuine?

Kreator
You dont know him. He is a close friend to St Paisios and lives next to me in Greece. She is trying to convert those people.

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Elisha
Quote from: Kreator on March 30, 2007, 11:16:50 AM
Vassula Ryden is 100% genuine. This comes from an Athonite monk.
There are Athonite monks who also believe that the Jooz are evil and taking over the world, the Protocols of the Elders of Zion, everyone only speaks Greek in heaven and other silly things.  Should I believe everything any Athonite monk says?

FrChris
Please provide a name and location of this alleged Athonite monk, as well as an indication of when this monk was granted infallibility regarding this matter. I have a high admiration for those on the holy mountain. However, individuals have made mistakes in the past, and my own experience with folks misled by Ms. Ryden is that she is a very spiritually dangerous person and not one who should be listened to. Ever. Period.

ozgeorge
Quote from: Kreator on March 30, 2007, 11:16:50 AM
Vassula Ryden is 100% genuine. This comes from an Athonite monk.
So this “Athonite monk” who doesn’t live on the Holy Mountain thinks that this woman who divorced her husband without obtaining an ecclesiastical divorce and then married again six months later in a civil ceremony without the blessing of the Church is an excellent spokesperson for Christianity?  Can you see why I might not be convinced?
I said it before- Vassula appeals to people who know nothing about the Church, because she doesn’t either.

Kreator
His name is father John and he live is Psychiko, Athens, Greece. He does mass in Drossia next to where I live. It should be clear that a would-be prophet would not go to such lengths to spread the faith. And one more thing how come you know so much on her personal life? I dont think it is any of your business.

Schultz
Quote from: Kreator on March 30, 2007, 01:48:12 PM
And one more thing how come you know so much on her personal life? I don’t think it is any of your business.
It’s actually quite in the public record and the most cursory news search on her turns up such basic information.

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ozgeorge
Quote from: Kreator on March 30, 2007, 01:48:12 PM
It should be clear that a would-be prophet would not go to such lengths to spread the faith.

By that logic, Mohammed is a true prophet also.
Take my advice. Put down “True Life in God” and pick up the Gospel. Turn to the 24th verse of the 24th Chapter of the Gospel of St. Matthew where Our Lord Jesus Christ says: “For there shall arise false Christs, and false prophets, and shall shew great signs and wonders; insomuch that, if it were possible, they shall deceive the very elect.”

Salpy
Kreator, Have you actually spoken to this monk and heard from his own mouth that he supports Vassula?  I ask that because a common tactic of Vassula’s promoters is to lie and say that a particular prominent person had endorsed Vassula, when the person in question has done no such thing.  
There is an Armenian woman near my church who has been recruiting people from my parish to study Vassula’s writings. She has lied and said that Pope Shenouda supports Vassula, when he does not.  Also, she has told people that the priest from my church endorses Vassula, when he does not.  She told people this about my priest after he had had a confrontation with her in which he made it clear that he did not believe in Vassula and that he wanted this woman to leave our church alone.  Obviously, my priest was not happy when he found out that after this meeting with her she began lying and telling people he supported Vassula.
Vassula claims to receive her messages through a sort of possession and automatic writing.  These are things that have no basis in the Christian religion and are known to be occult practices which are used by mediums for channeling and séances.
Last summer, when the above mentioned woman began recruiting people from my church, I made a point of spending a couple of days reading Vassula’s messages which are published on her website.  I did this so I could honestly discuss Vassula with people who were getting into her.  I felt like purging myself after reading the messages, which read like a poorly written romance novel.   She sexualizes her relationship with Christ.  She writes of Christ wedding her in a marriage ceremony.  She talks of a bridal chamber and matrimonial bed where Christ will kiss her with His mouth.  I shouldn’t even be repeating these things on a Christian forum, but I am doing this so people will see how disturbed, disgusting and creepy this whole Vassula movement is. I urge you to be cautious and not get involved in this movement.  If you want to read the words of Christ and know of His love for you, read the Gospels.  That is all you need.  Contrary to what Vassula’s followers say, you don’t need to read her messages to be saved.

Kreator
Quote from: Kreator on March 30, 2007, 01:48:12 PM
His name is father John and he live is Psychiko Athens Greece. He does mass in Drossia next to where I live. It should be clear that a would-be prophet would not go to such lengths to spread the faith. And one more thing how come you know so much on her personal life? I don’t think it is any of your business.
Kreator
Salpy your message is filled with unproven assumptions. First of all I am not involved in any ”movement” neither has anyone stated that Vassula’s messages are essential to salvation. Second I was sceptical about her until I spoke to said monk as all should be. Third, I couldn’t care less what some woman in your parish is doing. Third I have not found anywhere a hint of sexuality or anything perverse. If you would like post some quotes to prove that. Vassula is preaching about Jesus to people who may have never heard about His message. I am not at all disturbed after reading her messages. Last and least of all, God can communicate with anyone and in any way he pleases.
To ozgeorge:  It may be happening sooner than you think.

Fr. Anastasios
One example suffices to show this woman is a heretic and excommunicated from the Orthodox Church:
http://www.tlig.org/en/interreligious/hiroshima/

Meeting at a Buddhist Temple in Hiroshima, Japan, August 4 to 6th, 1999
During the organization for the arrival of Vassula in Japan, I felt compelled to seek God’s counsel in total confidence in Him so that those that would attend the meeting, might be open to conversion of the heart. That they might come to understand the need for unceasing prayer, in order to be in intimate communion with the Lord in their soul and to acquire zeal for His mission.
The meeting was held in August the 4th at 6:30 PM at the Buddhist temple, a name that means ‘Stella Maris’. The theme of the meeting was to teach us “How good is the Lord”. Over one hundred people were there, among them Buddhists, Shintoists, Rumanian orthodox, Catholics and Protestants of different denominations, such as Lutherans, Baptists, Methodists, and Anglicans. Attending also were the most reverend bishop of Hiroshima Joseph Misue and some priests and religious. Our Buddhist hosts were sincerely touched by the Christian message, the revealed God that is the cause of our happiness and hope.
The meeting with Vassula coincided with the memorial of the 54th anniversary of the atomic bomb attack on Hiroshima. There was a moment of reverent silence, followed by prayer and hope for the world.
During the distribution of the invitations to Vassula’s speech, we sought to contact each potential participant by trying to arouse interest toward God and by answering to questions. As witnesses of the truth contained in True Life In God books and thanks to numerous miracles of conversion observed everywhere around us, we have accomplished a truly missionary work with respect and consideration for the belief of others. With our faith in the reality of Jesus Christ in the history of mankind, and in documents from Vassula as the sole weapon, we have seen the truth triumph, because it shines its clean light. The faith, hope and love that God has given us and the paternal welcome of our bishop, have made possible this encounter in Hiroshima.
All the participants had either read the books of True Life in God or had known who Vassula is through members of True Life In God prayer groups. So everyone knew the mystical dimension of Vassula’s mission. However, everyone was surprised listening to this mother of a family, speak in such a simple and sure manner about her interactions with her guardian angel, with the Mother of God and the three persons of the Holy Trinity. It seemed to me that from all hearts gushed forth the exclamation of Saint Peter: “Lord, it is good to be here!”
Vassula has reminded us of the Love of God and His desire that all return to His Heart with ardent love. Simplicity and depth characterized her talk. Finally we were reminded of what our Father told us on June 18th 1994: “Come and learn: in the morning sow your seed of love, at noon sow your seed of peace and in the evening sow your seed of reconciliation”.
Finally, Vassula presented the bonze of the temple with a statue of our Lady of Fatima. She also gave a rosary to a bonze of the temple of Fukuyama and a cross to the bishop. The latter, some days after, showed us the cross and expressed his happiness about the success of the meeting with Vassula.
The statue of the Virgin of Fatima has gone to enrich the patrimony of the inter-religious dialog that Buddhists have begun with Christians in 1987. They have placed this statue near that of our Lady of Lourdes that they have brought during a recent pilgrimage to the Grotto of Massabielle.
On August 5th Vassula visited the survivors of the attack in Hiroshima, at the Hospital of the Atomic Bomb, and these patients have been bedridden for over fifty years. She saw the same persons that Pope John Paul II and Mother Theresa have visited. It is hard to describe the emotion of this encounter of Vassula and the victims and I cannot forget her look kissing them, seeing in each of them the mystery of suffering, the pain and the evil, until the Cross of Jesus.
In the afternoon, the Catholic University put at our disposal a hall for the prayer group of True Life in God. Vassula taught us how it is necessary, in our daily life to live truly our life in God. All of us were struck by the frequent repetition of the word “reconciliation”. Our group of Hiroshima understood that it is paramount to live and pray for reconciliation. To all our questions, we have received clear replies and imprints of charity. Then we went to the Cathedral of Hiroshima, where a Requiem Mass for the victims of the atomic bomb was said, concelebrated by the bishops of Hiroshima, Nagoya, Takamatsu and Osaka. Also numerous priests took part.

Receiving with us the Eucharist, Vassula, a Greek orthodox, accomplished her mission of peace, love and unity in our Lord. Thus, she who is the living witness of our Lord’s thirst for our reconciliation, pilgrim of the merciful will of God, continued realizing in an ineffable manner the unity in the BODY of CHRIST.

Later during supper, Vassula met the bonze of Hiroshima and his wife. They said they were touched and happy to have reached, through their progress with Christians, to share what they called “the treasure” of True Life in God. Vassula invited them to participate in the great Jubilee of the year 2000, in the Holy Land next March.
The numerous young people attending this supper, asked Vassula for some spiritual advice for their life. With a maternal attention and her sense of humor, she managed to adapt herself to each one of them, with moderated and wise advice. If only we had been able to record all this simple conversation, we would have now a real collection of aphorisms such as those that the 5th century holy Copt Barsanuphe has left us.
On Friday, August 6th at 8:15 AM, we were gathered at the great “Peace Park” above which exploded the first atomic bomb, in that very same day in 1945 at the same hour. Amid the crowd in prayer, we heard the funereal toll of a Buddhist bell, while an alarm siren announced a minute of silence in all Japan. The same azure sky, the same heat…before the tragedy that had a death toll of a hundred thousand people, whose many children were caught by surprise in their schools. Until evening, people tortured by burns and thirst, threw themselves into the river and perished. We left the park remembering the legacy of such tragedy, the many cases of leukemia and thyroid cancer still occurring.
The arrival of Vassula in Hiroshima, a city with such a painful past, was a precious gift of God that will surely bear fruit. My Japanese friends told me that everything in True Life in God reminds them of the book of the Apocalypse of Saint John. We also wait for the end of pain in the world and for the restoration of grace: an end and a beginning that Saint John has announced to us by asking: “Come Lord Jesus!” and the Lord has already told us: “Yes, I’ll come soon”.
Moments later, Vassula caught the Shinkansen bound for Fukuoka, to visit the next True Life In God prayer group…
Kreator, you yourself said in another post there is no dialogue with Buddhists. Yet here is Vassula doing this herself!

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Kreator
There is no dialogue with the creepy monk that lives in a monastery in Tibet and does you know what, the kind that St Paisios dispatched by the dozens. There should be dialogue with everyone from every religion, otherwise they will not know about Christianity and Jesus Christ.

Fr. Anastasios
Quote from: Kreator on March 30, 2007, 04:24:26 PM
There is no dialogue with the creepy monk that lives in a monastery in Tibet and does you know what, the kind that St Paisios dispatched by the dozens. There should be dialogue with everyone from every religion, otherwise they will not know about Christianity and Jesus Christ.

That is not dialogue, it is evangelism.
As you can see, Vassula communed in a Roman Catholic Church. Therefore, she is outside the Orthodox faith. Anastasios

Kreator
Roman Catholics have saints too. Edit:  Shultz you don’t understand, think about it

Schultz
Kreator, That’s not the point.  Her act of communion in a Roman Catholic Church caused her de facto excommunication from the Greek Orthodox Church.

lubeltri
Quote from: Salpy on March 30, 2007, 02:39:59 PM
I felt like purging myself after reading the messages which read like a poorly written romance novel.   She sexualizes her relationship with Christ.  She writes of Christ wedding her in a marriage ceremony.  She talks of a bridal chamber and matrimonial bed where Christ will kiss her with His mouth.  I shouldn’t even be repeating these things on a Christian forum, but I am doing this so people will see how disturbed, disgusting and creepy this whole Vassula movement is. 
That sounds like the Family International. One of that cult’s chief devotional practices is to imagine they are having intercourse with Jesus.
Of course, I shouldn’t judge since I haven’t read any of her writings.
But I will not read them either, considering this warning:
NOTIFICATION ON VASSULA RYDEN (6 October 1995)
Congregation for the Doctrine of the Faith
Many bishops, priests, religious and lay people have sought an authoritative judgement from this Congregation on the activity of Mrs. Vassula Ryden, a Greek Orthodox residing in Switzerland, who in speech and in writing is spreading in Catholic circles throughout the world messages attributed to alleged heavenly revelations.
A calm, attentive examination of the entire question, undertaken by this Congregation in order to “test the spirits to see whether they are of God” (cf. 1 Jn 4:1), has brought out – in addition to positive aspects – a number of basic elements that must be considered negative in the light of Catholic doctrine.
In addition to pointing out the suspect nature of the ways in which these alleged revelations have occurred, it is necessary to underscore several doctrinal errors they contain.

Among other things, ambiguous language is used in speaking of the Persons of the Holy Trinity, to the point of confusing the specific names and functions of the Divine Persons. These alleged revelations predict an imminent period when the Antichrist will prevail in the Church. In millenarian style, it is prophesied that God is going to make a final glorious intervention which will initiate on earth, even before Christ’s definitive coming, an era of peace and universal prosperity.

Furthermore, the proximate arrival is foretold of a Church which would be a kind of pan-Christian community, contrary to Catholic doctrine.
The fact that the aforementioned errors no longer appear in Ryden’s later writings is a sign that the alleged “heavenly messages” are merely the result of private meditations.
Moreover, by habitually sharing in the sacraments of the Catholic Church even though she is Greek Orthodox, Mrs. Ryden is causing considerable surprise in various circles of the Catholic Church. She appears to be putting herself above all ecclesiastical jurisdiction and every canonical norm, and in effect, is creating an ecumenical disorder that irritates many authorities, ministers and faithful of her own Church, as she puts herself outside the ecclesiastical discipline of the latter.
Given the negative effect of Vassula Ryden’s activities, despite some positive aspects, this Congregation requests the intervention of the Bishops so that their faithful may be suitably informed and that no opportunity may be provided in their Dioceses for the dissemination of her ideas. Lastly, the Congregation invites all the faithful not to regard Mrs. Vassula Ryden’s writings and speeches as supernatural and to preserve the purity of the faith that the Lord has entrusted to the Church.
Rome, from the Offices of the Congregation for the Doctrine of the Faith, 6 Oct 1995.
JOSEPH Cardinal RATZINGER
Prefect
http://www.ewtn.com/library/CURIA/CDFRYDN1.HTM

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Ebor
Quote from: Anastasios on March 30, 2007, 04:12:42 PM
One example suffices to show this woman is a heretic and excommunicated from the Orthodox Church:
http://www.tlig.org/en/interreligious/hiroshima/

Meeting at a Buddhist Temple in Hiroshima, Japan, August 4 to 6th, 1999
The meeting was held in August the 4th at 6:30 PM at the Buddhist temple, a name that means ‘Stella Maris’.
This doesn’t make sense to me.  Granted the arrows could be some other letter or character, but even so, “Stella Maris” means “Star of the Sea” and the word for “star” that I know is “hoshi”.  There is Miyajima in Hiroshima Prefecture, but it is the location of a famous Shinto Shrine, Itsukushima, which is the one with the huge red torii in the water.  “Miyajima” means “Shrine Island” for information’s sake. This may seem minor, but just odd things may be indicative of ummm careless or “creative” writing. And of such little mistakes, larger ones may follow. Ebor

FrChris
While I agree with the above comment:
Quote: This may seem minor, but just odd things may be indicative of ummm careless or “creative” writing. And of such little mistakes, larger ones may follow.
The link provided in lpap’s earlier post (number 9) should resolve this matter entirely, especially for Kreator since this statement comes from the Holy Synod in Greece:
http://www.ecclesia.gr/greek/holysynod/commitees/heresies/heresies-0008.htm

Quote:
The GREEK ORTHODOX CHURCH has issued the following statement (the original is in Greek) regarding Vassula:
Synodic Committee on Heresies, Sects.
The Committee, after it studied the evidence, come to conclusion that Vasoula Ryden has been deducted from the Orthodox Church, although typically she still is a member.
Additionally let it be known that regarding Vasoula Ryden’s organization there are extensive reports to Church periodical “Dialogue”.
Vasoula asked Greek Justice for the conviction of the Secretary of Synodic Committee on Heresies father Kyrjako Tsoyro for this publications, for slanderous libel. The trial was to take place at 30. 6. 2000, however Ms Ryden withdrew the indictment two days before this day.

lubeltri
What does it mean that she has been “deducted from the Orthodox Church, although typically she still is a member”?
Simply put, does it mean that she is excommunicate?

Veniamin
Quote from: lubeltri on March 30, 2007, 06:56:18 PM
What does it mean that she has been “deducted from the Orthodox Church, although typically she still is a member”? Simply put, does it mean that she is excommunicate?

I think it means she’s been excommunicated, but still shows up (maybe even receives if the priest isn’t aware of who she is).

pensateomnia
It’s clear that the Bishops decided that she is not in good standing with the Orthodox Church. That’s all we need to know.

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Salpy
Quote from: Kreator on March 30, 2007, 03:56:34 PM

I couldn’t care less what some woman in your parish is doing.
If the woman I described was the only one in Vassula’s group going around lying about prominent persons endorsing Vassula, I would understand your not caring.  However, this is just an example of a larger problem:
http://www.britishorthodox.org/113b.php

If you scroll down to the bottom of the above Coptic Orthodox webpage, you’ll see a notification warning people about Vassula.  This was written by the Coptic Metropolitan of Great Britain.  A few months later, Vassula’s publication falsely stated that the same Metropolitan sent Vassula “good wishes.”  Consequently, the Metropolitan had to make another note (at the very bottom of the webpage) stating that this never happened.
Vassula’s group has also been claiming that the Vatican notification against her has been modified or rescinded.  This never happened.  In fact the Catholic owner of the below website actually wrote to the Conference of Swiss Bishops to ask them if the Vatican did indeed modify its notice about Vassula and got a negative answer:
http://www.mypage.bluewin.ch/cafarus/tligchurchposition.htm#Swiss%20bishops

It just seems Vassula craves affirmation and endorsement from others.  In fact the last time I looked at her website, they had lots of pictures of her receiving awards and trophies (from organizations I never heard of.)  If she were truly from God she wouldn’t care what others thought of her.  Did Christ go around seeking endorsements?  Did any of the saints do that?  Of course not.  This is a woman who wants attention and adulation.  That is not a godly attitude.

ozgeorge
Quote from: Salpy on March 30, 2007, 08:56:45 PM
It just seems Vassula craves affirmation and endorsement from others.  In fact the last time I looked at her website, they had lots of pictures of her receiving awards and trophies (from organizations I never heard of.) 
She probably needs to compensate for the fact that she spreads her message in public meetings around the world with out seeking the permission or even against the disapproval of the local Bishop.
“The Synod of the Church of Greece, the Vatican, the Coptic Bishops all condemn me, but the Venerable Suddhananda Mahathero, President of the Bangladesh Bouddha Kristi Prachar Sangha, has awarded me the Atisha Dipankar & Visuddhananda Peace Gold Award.” Pretty weak argument.

Salpy
Quote from: Kreator on March 30, 2007, 03:56:34 PM
Third I have not found anywhere a hint of sexuality or anything perverse. If you would like post some quotes to prove that.

These are the dates of just some of the messages that “hint of sexuality”:
3-23-87; 3-30-87; 5-5-87; 5/19/87; 5/25/87; 9/4-6/87; 9/20/87; 9/27/87; 10/1/87; 11/8/87; 10/15/88; 9/28/89; 4/24/90; 9/24/90; 10/1/90; 12/23/90.  Then there are the “Odes of the Holy Trinity” published in February 2003.  Those are particularly bizarre.  In these “Odes” the three Persons of the Holy Trinity appear to Vassula in the form of three men.  I’ve never heard of the Holy Spirit represented as a man before, but there you have it.  All three of the Persons recite love poetry to Vassula, having taken her up to their bridal chamber.  Again, there is talk of a matrimonial bed:  “and [sic] I in My turn will allow you to unveil My Holy Face on our matrimonial bed…” (Taken from the Ode of the Holy Spirit)  

Salpy
http://www.orthodoxchristianity.net/forum/index.php/topic,9511.0.html

Reply number 4 in the above thread provides a different, and perhaps easier to read, translation of the decision by the Holy Synod in Greece.  It makes it clear she’s been excommunicated by the Greek Orthodox Church.

Kreator
My personal opinion does not change on the topic and I consider these writs useless since I have the opinion of a monk that speaks to God. Salpy I think you should reread those topics, it is just your impression.

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ozgeorge
Quote from: Kreator on March 31, 2007, 03:40:31 AM
My personal opinion does not change on the topic and I consider these writs useless since I have the opinion of a monk that speaks to God.
And the opinion of your Bishops counts for nothing? Are they not monks? Are they not appointed to oversee the Church of Christ? Is Vassula’s opinion more weighty than theirs? Open your eyes man!

Kreator
Bishops do not communicate with God and they have been known to eat each other up for a step up in authority. If you really want to clear this out you should find some charismatic monk, they are more common than you think. Edit:  You are a bit stiff ozgeorge; you should look into facts before you express an opinion beyond doubt. This goes both ways.

ozgeorge
Quote from: Kreator on March 31, 2007, 03:54:09 AM
Bishops do not communicate with God and they have been known to eat each other up for a step up in authority. If you really want to clear this out you should find some charismatic monk, they are more common than you think.
No thanks. I’d rather be in the Church under an Orthodox Bishop than the slavish follower of a heretical guru. No Bishop, no Church- end of story.

The young fogey
Vassula Ryden AFAIK is a free-lance religious leader not under any Eastern Orthodox, Oriental Orthodox or Roman Catholic bishop, somewhere between Pentecostal and New Age who happens to be Greek and a born (former?) Orthodox. The channelling of her ‘angel’ and the automatic writing – occult practices – should tip you off that this is dangerous. I think in another thread it was pointed out that the Vatican rejected the alleged messages. Stay away from this.
Reminds me a bit of Aimee Semple McPherson.

Kreator
I have already answered all these points. Besides the Vatican updated its position in 2004. And I have the word of someone I trust. You people not only reject her de facto but you conjure filth out of nowhere and try to attach it to her. You will see soon.

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lubeltri
Quote from: Kreator on March 31, 2007, 11:26:38 AM
Besides the Vatican updated its position in 2004.

That is not true. The 1995 notification still stands.

Veniamin
Quote from: Kreator on March 31, 2007, 11:26:38 AM
I have already answered all these points. Besides the Vatican updated its position in 2004. And I have the word of someone I trust. You people not only reject her de facto but you conjure filth out of nowhere and try to attach it to her. You will see soon.
I seem to remember our Lord saying something about knowing people by their fruits.  This one’s fruits are perverse fantasies about God.  That is rotten fruit, indeed.

ozgeorge
Quote from: lubeltri on March 31, 2007, 11:37:37 AM
That is not true. The 1995 notification still stands.
I really don’t think Kreator will listen unless repeatedly presented with concrete facts to support it. Like most “Vassulites”, he/she is brainwashed, and brainwashed people do not like their version of reality challenged.
The evidence that that the “Vassulites” in Greece are brainwashed is twofold. Firstly, the fact that they will not accept the publicly proclaimed decision of their own Church which states that Vassula is a heretic and is cut off from the Church:
Quote {not intelligible}

Source: Church of Greece- Synodal Commission on Heresies
Secondly, like the follower of any cult, they fear the wrath of the leader for questioning them: hence the statement:
Quote from: Kreator on March 31, 2007, 11:26:38 AM
You will see soon.
Here is a link to the testimony of a survivor of the TLIG cult: http://www.infovassula.ch/tlighome.html#TESTIMONY%201.  
After breaking free from the cult, she started a website critiquing TLIG.

Kreator
Let me repeat Ozgeorge in case you didn’t get it. I am not part of any cult and I have the testimony of a person who pulls more weight than you ever will. For Gods sake people do your own research instead of posting insubstantial FILTH.
PS. If you are afraid, you don’t believe in Jesus Christ, period.

ozgeorge
Quote from: Kreator on March 31, 2007, 01:46:37 PM
I am not part of any cult and I have the testimony of a person who pulls more weight than you ever will.
Complete contradiction. If you are “not a member of a cult”, then why would you accept the “testimony of a person” against the official decrees of the Church?

http://www.orthodoxchristianity.net/forum/index.php/topic,5923.120/wap2.html
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Salpy
Quote from: Kreator on March 31, 2007, 11:26:38 AM
Besides the Vatican updated its position in 2004.

Ever since the Vatican released its original Notification in 1995, Vassula and her followers have been lying and saying that the Vatican modified its position.  That is why a little over a year after the original Notification, the Vatican had to release another one refuting the lies and affirming that the 1995 statement was still in effect:
http://www.ewtn.com/library/CURIA/CDFRYDN2.HTM

Earlier I linked to this page which contained a statement by an Episcopal Conference affirming that in 2004 the Vatican’s position did not change:
http://www.mypage.bluewin.ch/cafarus/tligchurchposition.htm#Swiss%20bishops

The reality is that the Vatican’s position is not going to change.  The man who wrote the original Notification is now Pope. 
Vassula and her followers still continue to lie, however.  They are desperate for that endorsement, and if they can’t get it honestly, they’ll lie about it.  They did the same thing with the Coptic Metropolitan, and one of Vassula’s local followers is now lying about my priest.  That’s just how they operate. Think:  Who is the father of lies?  It’s not God.

lubeltri
I don’t know why they even try. The Vatican tends to be very skeptical of private revelations, for the reason that for every Lourdes there are 1,000 Vassula Rydens. So if they can’t get approval, they’ll make it up instead.

Salpy
Quote from: Kreator on March 31, 2007, 01:46:37 PM
I am not part of any cult

Kreator, I know we may sound harsh in some of our posts, but you need to realize that our harshness is not directed toward you personally.  It is, at least in my case, a reflection of the frustration in dealing with a movement which is very deceptive.  We actually care about you, or we wouldn’t be warning you away from this woman and her group.
You say you are not part of a cult, but you need to consider the fact that Vassula’s group has some of the characteristics of a cult.  For example, Vassula in her messages says that Christ is angry with those who reject her messages and indicates that He may punish them.  See, for example, the messages dated 9/5/88 and 3/8/89.  In the first one, she says when Christ spoke of those who rejected her, he talked angrily and even shouted.  In the latter message, He speaks of possible punishment for those who reject her. 
For your own sake, you need to step back from this and look at it objectively.  The Bible should be enough for us.  We don’t need additional revelations.  If you want to supplement your Bible reading with other material, look to the writings of the saints.  Their writings have survived the test of time.  The Greek Church has such a rich treasury of patristic writings!  That is where you should go, instead of a charlatan like Vassula.  Do you have any spiritual father, other than the monk who introduced you to Vassula?  If so, I would talk this over with him and get recommendations for other books to read instead of Vassula.  It can’t hurt to try.

observer
I am apt to think that Ryden’s Jesus is none other than Maitreya.  The Jesus, I worship is the Lord, the Christ, the Son of the Living God. Anathema to all witches and false prophets!

Kreator
Wait until July…

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Veniamin
Quote from: Kreator on April 03, 2007, 09:11:52 AM
Wait until July…
But I want July to come now…

jmbejdl
Quote from: Kreator on April 03, 2007, 09:11:52 AM
Wait until July….
So what exactly are we supposed to look out for in July? I’d honestly love to know. The only thing I’m sorry about is that it isn’t a little sooner so that you can be disabused of your beliefs about this false prophet that bit earlier. James

buzuxi
MODERATION:  Unsupported accusations deleted
She has not an inkling of knowledge about the Triune God, in fact judging from her writings she may not even believe in the all-Holy Trinity at all.
The fact that she is more of a brain-dead **** than a mystic comes from her lectures themselves! Her lecture at a Buddhist temple on the Unity under the One God makes absolutely no sense. If she actually read up on Buddhism, she would know that Buddhists do not believe in a God! Buddhists believe after a cycle of reincarnations a human achieves Nirvana, which is the extinguishing of the flame of life, and basically one fuses with the cosmic “nothingness”.
That’s like me giving a lecture on the Resurrection of the Dead at a Hindu Temple believing that Hindus have the same belief as me! How stupid would i feel after I finish when one points out they only believe in re-incarnation.
She speaks about the love of God, unless…. You do not believe in her, then God may visit you with wrath, OR… one of her supporters “possessed by God” may kill you as a punishment, lolololol.
Well Kyria Vassula (and I use the word Kyria loosely, loose being the key word), If your listening or if one of your puppets are, my name is Kostantinos from NY, go ahead send your “boogey man” after me.
I’m not afraid of your master, the father of Lies: Satan. I’m counting down the days till July, oohhhh I’m soooo afraid…

Veniamin
We all may not like the woman or what she teaches, but I hardly think that merits calling her ****…

Salpy
“Heretic” and “blasphemer” would be more appropriate. July is almost here, though. I wonder what is going to happen…

http://www.orthodoxchristianity.net/forum/index.php?PHPSESSID=jvvcjt34n7fugvjin85ao6rod2&topic=5923.130;wap2
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buzuxi
MODERATION:  Unsupported accusations deleted
buzuxi, to call Vassula Ryden a heretic and a blasphemer, as Salpy did, is quite proper, since her teachings are pretty well known and can be contrasted against the dogmatic Tradition of the Church.  To accuse her moral character as you did, however, is totally inappropriate regardless of what she teaches.  Your accusations, if not supported by public records, can even be considered libel.  Such personal attacks will not be tolerated. PeterTheAleut Faith Issues Section Moderator

Schultz
And where I come from this constitutes the throwing of stones. 
The woman is clearly not Orthodox or even orthodox, but that’s no reason to call to mind her sins when you should be calling to mind your own.

Veniamin
Quote from: Schultz on June 27, 2007, 04:32:02 PM
The woman is clearly not Orthodox or even orthodox, but that’s no reason to call to mind her sins when you should be calling to mind your own.
But where’s the fun in that?

Ebor
Quote from: buzuxi on June 27, 2007, 03:56:58 PM
Where I come from that makes her a p*******.
I would guess that the word is something rude/degrading.  One wonders what a person is called in that region when they throw out pejoratives and slurs against another human being who is not around to defend themselves…
I concur with you, Schultz. Ebor

Salpy
So July came and went and nothing happened.  I’m so surprised.

http://www.orthodoxchristianity.net/forum/index.php/topic,5923.135/wap2.html
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Ebor
I’d noticed that, too.  It’s now been more then a month, so it can’t be a case of having the 7th month on the old Japanese Lunar calendar either. Ebor

Salpy
Yeah, and I think enough time has passed that it can’t be July under the Julian calendar either.   
Actually, something did happen, but not in July: Remember this?
Quote from: Kreator on March 31, 2007, 11:26:38 AM
Besides the Vatican updated its position in 2004.
Vassula and her followers have been claiming that in 2004 the Vatican changed its position and the 1995 Notification against her was invalidated.
Well it turns out that in January of 2007, the Vatican’s Congregation for the Doctrine of the Faith sent out a letter confirming that nothing has changed and that the 1995 Notification is still in effect.  It also advised people not to attend Vassula prayer groups.
Here’s a translation of that letter:
http://www.infovassula.ch/tlighome.html

Here’s a photocopy of the original letter:
http://www.infovassula.ch/tligchurchposition.htm#original

I kind of feel sorry for the Vatican, having to repeatedly deal with this woman.
Asteriktos
Quote
I kind of feel sorry for the Vatican, having to repeatedly deal with this woman.
Charlatans are often hard to keep down. Peter Popoff was exposed as a fraud two decades ago, and yet he is back out in plain sight scamming people again (though I do get a kick out of his listed occupation on Wiki: “Con Artist”.

mmaccs
This picture of the face of Jesus of Nazareth appeared miraculously when photographs were taken of the return of a chalice to the tabernacle of a Spanish church which had been pillaged during the Spanish civil war (1936-39).
Someone took a photograph of a priest at the consecration during the Holy Mass. When the film was developed, this image of the Holy Family was present. Because I doubted this explanation, I sent the photos to a person in Italy near Rome who was endowed with special graces of discernment. The response I received was that the image was indeed authentic.
To the question from where the picture came, the mystic was told by Jesus, “It is not important from where or from whom the picture originates. No one should take credit for that. With this picture I want to bring aid to the world…
It is the family of Nazareth. It is very precious, so as to take it into families; it brings My blessings. With it come faith, prayer and My presence. I, Myself, come with it into the home… “
http://www.davidtlig.org.uk/holyfamily.html

Salpy
Sorry, I just have to ask:  Who was the mystic?

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Jakub
The picture with the Holy Family I have seen on a prayer/holy card from the 50’s somewhere, as for the picture of Christ I have no clue.

FrChris
I’ll tell everyone just what I think of this ‘mystic’ Vassula Ryden: the same thing I said on July 13, 2006:

http://www.orthodoxchristianity.net/forum/index.php/topic,9511.0.html

Quote
Lord have mercy! My local parish had one of these Ryden Den of Vipers a few years ago. It was strange… this pack knew to not discuss their secret meetings with our parish priest since apparently they feared he would disapprove, yet they would recruit others in our parish because they wanted to spread the word about her. So, like others trapped in wrongdoing and sin, they know enough to hide their activities yet try to drag others into their situation…
I recently came across this site, which has among other items the 1995 ‘Notification’ about Ms. Ryden from the Congregation for the Doctrine of the Faith. This is helpful since it shows many of the problems Ms. Ryden is presenting as part of her True Life In God movement: http://www.mypage.bluewin.ch/cafarus/tlignotification1.htm

Concluding paragraph:
Given the negative effect of Vassula Ryden’s activities, despite some positive aspects, this Congregation requests the intervention of the Bishops so that their faithful may be suitably informed and that no opportunity may be provided in their Dioceses for the dissemination of her ideas. Lastly, the Congregation invites all the faithful not to regard Mrs. Vassula Ryden’s writings and speeches as supernatural and to preserve the purity of the faith that the Lord has entrusted to the Church.
Vatican City, 6 October 1995
Now, various people in league with Ms. Ryden have argued that this ‘Notification’ has been retracted, but the above site shows that this is not the case. (This above document was signed by a certain Cardinal Ratzinger, btw…)
One of the pages within the attached site is titled:
“Eternal condemnation of those who oppose the TLIG messages” and has the following excerpt:
Quote
As we have seen previously, TLIG’s definition of these sins is modified in order to include whoever openly opposes the messages. It does so by affirming from the start that the messages are divine (in open contradiction with the Catholic Church’s Notifications and the position of the Greek Orthodox Church) and that therefore to oppose them is to refuse God and Salvation.
The fact that Ms. Ryden is apparently inventing her own doctrine and threatening ‘eternal punishment’ for any who disagree with her should set off HUGE WARNING SIRENS in any rational person’s head…
The website is mainly Catholic-oriented, but at least it does acknowledge that the Orthodox Church has not accepted her ‘pronouncements’ either.

Veniamin

Yet they’re all whiter than I am…

GabrieltheCelt
Quote from: Veniamin on November 10, 2007, 11:55:09 PM
Yet they’re all whiter than I am…
That was my second thought; first? Fake.

ozgeorge
This is the excommunicated heretic Vassula Ryden’s rubbish and her “True Life in God” (TLIG) cult.
Here are some more threads about her:
http://www.orthodoxchristianity.net/forum/index.php?action=tags;id=208

Here is a critical website from a Roman Catholic ex-cult member: http://www.infovassula.ch/

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Αριστοκλής
First “photo” – a setup
Second photo – obviously a RC thing as Joseph was not that young, and it’s not a photograph.

FrChris
Yeah, Joseph should at least be in his late 70’s…
I pointed out last year on another board that the portrayal in The Nativity movie was wildly inaccurate regarding the age of Joseph, I was warned by the admin folks there to not be so ‘Hyperdox’. 

Sloga
I didn’t know Jesus was an Anglo-Saxon?

Αριστοκλής
Quote from: Sloga on November 11, 2007, 04:53:57 PM
I didn’t know Jesus was an Anglo-Saxon?
You are right…no Sabra Hebrew in that picture.

Ebor
My response would be “Photographs, my foot!” as well as a reply to this quote from the linked site.
“Because I doubted this explanation, I sent the photos to a person in Italy near Rome who was endowed with special graces of discernment. The response I received was that the image was indeed authentic.”
Me:  If they were really photographs one might think that an expert in photography would be a better person to judge “authenticity” than an *unknown, unnamed person near Rome* as well as “the image is authentic?  An “authentic” *what*?

I’m not an art expert, but looking at them they are clearly not photographs, but drawings.  The lower one has the look of 50’s-60’s art with the Lady more like “maDonna Reed” (no disrespect intended to either lady). 
The upper one looks more late Victorian/early 20th century in style and maybe German or from somewhere around there.
Sigh!  No names, no location, no checkable facts. Urban legend stuff. Ebor

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Christodoulos
I do not like these fotos! They look so “catholic” and not real!
I have seen orthodox fotos of the Allholy Theotokos and she looked complete different. She was covered and dressed like it is shown on orthodox icons. And She is not looking with such sentimental feelings, she looks sweet but I would say emotion-less! The expression on these fotos is a secular one and not a spiritual – sentimental feelings have nothing to do with true Christian spirit. Usually Catholics use such feelings for contemplation!
Alexius
Quote from: Ebor on November 11, 2007, 11:34:44 PM
My response would be “Photographs, my foot!” as well as a reply to this quote from the linked site.
“Because I doubted this explanation, I sent the photos to a person in Italy near Rome who was endowed with special graces of discernment. The response I received was that the image was indeed authentic.”
Me:  If they were really photographs one might think that an expert in photography would be a better person to judge “authenticity” than an *unknown, unnamed person near Rome* as well as “the image is authentic?  An “authentic” *what*? I’m not an art expert, but looking at them they are clearly not photographs, but drawings.  The lower one has the look of 50’s-60’s art with the Lady more like “maDonna Reed” (no disrespect intended to either lady). 
The upper one looks more late Victorian/early 20th century in style and maybe German or from somewhere around there. Sigh! No names, no location, no checkable facts. Urban legend stuff. Ebor
I agree! The first one does look very late Victorian and definitely German or French — like what you would see in the front pages of an old Latin Bible (I have a few old Bibles) and the second one much, much later. Also not what those of Bethlehem would look like!

Didymus
St. Joseph seems a little young but who I am to say anyway?

mmaccs
A picture of Jesus Christ? How many times have you heard someone say: “We don’t know what Jesus looked like.” When you are looking at a picture of a blue-eyed, golden brown-haired Jesus with a shepherd’s rod in one hand and a lamb in the other, you know that Jesus didn’t look like that — it is just an artist’s representation. It is, however, possible that one of His contemporaries painted a portrait of our Savior. Eusebius of the latter second century claims to have seen color portraits of our Jesus. The following picture just might be genuine. It is purported to have been engraved by a contemporary of Jesus in the first century. When we first saw it, it was accompanied by the following text:
From the only authentic likeness of our Savior cut on an emerald by command of Tiberius Caesar, and given to Pope Innocent VIII from the treasury at Constantinople, by the emperor of the Turks, for the ransom of his brother, then a captive of the Christians.
http://www.revelado.org/likeness.htm

EDIT:  Excerpt copied and pasted from article to make post compliant with forum policy.  – PeterTheAleut

mmaccs
The Description of Publius Lentullus
The following was taken from a manuscript in the possession of Lord Kelly, and in his library, and was copied from an original letter of Publius Lentullus at Rome. It being the usual custom of Roman Governors to advertise the Senate and people of such material things as happened in their provinces in the days of Tiberius Caesar, Publius Lentullus, President of Judea, wrote the following epistle to the Senate concerning the Nazarene called Jesus.
“There appeared in these our days a man, of the Jewish Nation, of great virtue, named Yeshua [Jesus], who is yet living among us, and of the Gentiles is accepted for a Prophet of truth, but His own disciples call Him the Son of God- He raiseth the dead and cureth all manner of diseases. A man of stature somewhat tall, and comely, with very reverent countenance, such as the beholders may both love and fear, his hair of (the colour of) the chestnut, full ripe, plain to His ears, whence downwards it is more orient and curling and wavering about His shoulders. In the midst of His head is a seam or partition in His hair, after the manner of the Nazarenes. His forehead plain and very delicate; His face without spot or wrinkle, beautified with a lovely red; His nose and mouth so formed as nothing can be reprehended; His beard thickish, in colour like His hair, not very long, but forked; His look innocent and mature; His eyes grey, clear, and quick- In reproving hypocrisy He is terrible; in admonishing, courteous and fair spoken; pleasant in conversation, mixed with gravity. It cannot be remembered that any have seen Him Laugh, but many have seen Him Weep. In proportion of body, most excellent; His hands and arms delicate to behold. In speaking, very temperate, modest, and wise. A man, for His singular beauty, surpassing the children of men”
http://www.thenazareneway.com/likeness_of_our_saviour.htm

EDIT:  Excerpt copied and pasted from article to make post compliant with forum policy.  – PeterTheAleut
Next time, mmaccs, could you please include an excerpt of the linked article together with the link so others can decide if they want to follow the link and so I don’t have to copy and paste the text for you?  Thank you in advance for your assistance on this matter.

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BrotherAidan
Quote from: Ebor on November 11, 2007, 11:34:44 PM
I’m not an art expert, but looking at them they are clearly not photographs, but drawings.  The lower one has the look of 50’s-60’s art with the Lady more like “maDonna Reed” (no disrespect intended to either lady). 
You made me laugh with that one. I was wondering how the Theotokos could look like June Cleaver myself!

Alexius
Quote from: mmaccs on December 30, 2007, 01:01:12 AM
A picture of Jesus Christ? How many times have you heard someone say: “We don’t know what Jesus looked like.” When you are looking at a picture of a blue-eyed, golden brown-haired Jesus with a shepherd’s rod in one hand and a lamb in the other, you know that Jesus didn’t look like that–it is just an artist’s representation. It is, however, possible that one of His contemporaries painted a portrait of our Savior. Eusebius of the latter second century claims to have seen color portraits of our Jesus. The following picture just might be genuine. It is purported to have been engraved by a contemporary of Jesus in the first century. When we first saw it, it was accompanied by the following text:
From the only authentic likeness of our Savior cut on an emerald by command of Tiberius Caesar, and given to Pope Innocent VIII from the treasury at Constantinople, by the emperor of the Turks, for the ransom of his brother, then a captive of the Christians.
http://www.revelado.org/likeness.htm

EDIT:  Excerpt copied and pasted from article to make post compliant with forum policy.  – PeterTheAleut
Not to be too picky, but wasn’t Eusebius from the latter third to early fourth century, not the latter second century? He was also against images and I believe he cites the Ten Commandments, which he believes to support his iconoclastic views… Certainly by his lifetime, there would have been many images of our Lord…

Ebor
Not trying to be difficult, but there are warnings going off in my head immediately on reading this.
Quote from: mmaccs on December 30, 2007, 01:01:12 AM
It is, however, possible that one of His contemporaries painted a portrait of our Savior. Eusebius of the latter second century claims to have seen color portraits of our Jesus.
First point, no citation given for just where Eusebius made this claim.  It would be helpful to have a checkable point. Second, Eusebius is late 3rd Century and into the 4th.  So there’s an error that could be checked.
Quote
The following picture just might be genuine. It is purported to have been engraved by a contemporary of Jesus in the first century.
Emphasis added. Might? Or might not.  Purported by whom?  Who is the unnamed “contemporary”?  No checkable name/date/source.
Quote
When we first saw it, it was accompanied by the following text:
From the only authentic likeness of our Savior cut on an emerald by command of Tiberius Caesar, and given to Pope Innocent VIII from the treasury at Constantinople, by the emperor of the Turks, for the ransom of his brother, then a captive of the Christians.
Picture removed to save bandwidth.  Questions:
Just why would Tiberius command someone to carve the image of an obscure person on an emerald?  Recall that to the Roman Empire Jesus did not have any such importance as He does to Christians now.
What is the source for this claim?
Recalling that “Extraordinary claims require at least Ordinary standards of proof”, what evidence is there that such an emerald even existed? A drawing/engraving is not proof.  
Next, Sultan Bayezid II of the Ottoman Empire had a brother, Cem, who had tried to take the throne and then fled.  He tried to get support from the Knights of St. John.  The Sultan *paid* the Christians to keep his brother prisoner and out of his hair.  So there was no ransom involved.  Cem died in Italy.  So this is at odds with the claim. Ebor

mmaccs
He looks like quite a big guy around the shoulders! (The Lord did hard physical outside labor, with Joseph in Nazareth, until He was about 30 years old. Back then, the building trade involved very strenuous physical labor with heavy stone and lumber, without any sort of power tools or mechanical digging equipment that are in use today.) If it is Him, of course.

mmaccs
The letter from Pontius Pilate to Tiberius Caesar
This is a reprinting of a letter from Pontius Pilate to Tiberius Caesar describing the physical appearance of Jesus. Copies are in the Congressional Library in Washington, D.C.
TO TIBERIUS CAESAR:
A young man appeared in Galilee preaching with humble unction, a new law in the Name of the God that had sent Him. At first I was apprehensive that His design was to stir up the people against the Romans, but my fears were soon dispelled. Jesus of Nazareth spoke rather as a friend of the Romans than of the Jews. One day I observed in the midst of a group of people a young man who was leaning against a tree, calmly addressing the multitude. I was told it was Jesus. This I could easily have suspected so great was the difference between Him and those who were listening to Him. His golden colored hair and beard gave to his appearance a celestial aspect. He appeared to be about 30 years of age. Never have I seen a sweeter or more serene countenance.

What a contrast between Him and His bearers with their black beards and tawny complexions! Unwilling to interrupt Him by my presence, I continued my walk but signified to my secretary to join the group and listen. Later, my secretary reported that never had he seen in the works of all the philosophers anything that compared to the teachings of Jesus. He told me that Jesus was neither seditious nor rebellious, so we extended to Him our protection. He was at liberty to act, to speak, to assemble and to address the people. This unlimited freedom provoked the Jews — not the poor but the rich and powerful.
Later, I wrote to Jesus requesting an interview with Him at the Praetorium. He came. When the Nazarene made His appearance I was having my morning walk and as I faced Him my feet seemed fastened with an iron hand to the marble pavement and I trembled in every limb as a guilty culprit, though he was calm. For some time I stood admiring this extraordinary Man. There was nothing in Him that was repelling, nor in His character, yet I felt awed in His presence. I told Him that there was a magnetic simplicity about Him and His personality that elevated Him far above the philosophers and teachers of His day.
Now, Noble Sovereign, these are the facts concerning Jesus of Nazareth and I have taken the time to write you in detail concerning these matters. I say that such a man who could convert water into wine, change death into life, disease into health; calm the stormy seas, is not guilty of any criminal offense and as others have said, we must agree — truly this is the Son of God.
Your most obedient servant,
Pontius Pilate
http://www.thenazareneway.com/likeness_of_our_saviour.htm

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mmaccs
Quote from: mmaccs on December 30, 2007, 01:01:12 AM
A picture of Jesus Christ? How many times have you heard someone say: “We don’t know what Jesus looked like.” When you are looking at a picture of a blue-eyed, golden brown-haired Jesus with a shepherd’s rod in one hand and a lamb in the other, you know that Jesus didn’t look like that–it is just an artist’s representation. It is, however, possible that one of His contemporaries painted a portrait of our Savior. Eusebius of the latter second century claims to have seen color portraits of our Jesus. The following picture just might be genuine. It is purported to have been engraved by a contemporary of Jesus in the first century. When we first saw it, it was accompanied by the following text:
From the only authentic likeness of our Savior cut on an emerald by command of Tiberius Caesar, and given to Pope Innocent VIII from the treasury at Constantinople, by the emperor of the Turks, for the ransom of his brother, then a captive of the Christians.
http://www.revelado.org/likeness.htm

EDIT:  Excerpt copied and pasted from article to make post compliant with forum policy.  – PeterTheAleut
Ebor
Quote from: mmaccs on December 30, 2007, 01:02:17 AM
The Description of Publius Lentullus
<Insert emoticon of banging my head on the keyboard or CRT.> aaarrrrgghhhhhhhhhhhhh
Sorry.  It’s late. I’ll take a deep breath. This “letter” is a fake.  It is a fraud.  It is not a real letter from the first century AD.
Quote
The following was taken from a manuscript in the possession of Lord Kelly, and in his library
Which “Lord Kelly”?  Where is this library? What are his dates? 
Quote
and was copied from an original letter of Publius Lentullus at Rome. It being the usual custom of Roman Governors to advertise the Senate and people of such material things as happened in their provinces in the days of Tiberius Caesar, Publius Lentullus, President of Judea, wrote the following epistle to the Senate concerning the Nazarene called Jesus.
There was NO Roman “president” governor or other high official in Judea/Palestine in the 1st Century AD named “Publius Lentullus”. The Romans kept records of such things.  This person cited did not exist. 
There *was* a Publius Lentulus…in ROME in the first century BC who was part of the Second Cataline Conspiracy: Publius Cornelius Lentulus. There is no possible way for this person to have lived long enough to write this letter.  He died in 63 BC.
This letter was addressed in another thread in response to another poster citing it as factual.  It is not.  Its provenance is shady. Its historical facts are wrong. It cannot be looked on as any kind of truth. Sigh. Ebor

prodromos
Quote from: mmaccs on December 30, 2007, 01:02:17 AM
The Description of Publius Lentullus
The following was taken from a manuscript in the possession of Lord Kelly, and in his library, and was copied from an original letter of Publius Lentullus at Rome. It being the usual custom of Roman Governors to advertise the Senate and people of such material things as happened in their provinces in the days of Tiberius Caesar, Publius Lentullus, President of Judea, wrote the following epistle to the Senate concerning the Nazarene called Jesus.
“There appeared in these our days a man, of the Jewish Nation, of great virtue, named Yeshua [Jesus], who is yet living among us, and of the Gentiles is accepted for a Prophet of truth, but His own disciples call Him the Son of God- He raiseth the dead and cureth all manner of diseases.

A man of stature somewhat tall, and comely, with very reverent countenance, such as the beholders may both love and fear, his hair of (the colour of) the chestnut, full ripe, plain to His ears, whence downwards it is more orient and curling and wavering about His shoulders. In the midst of His head is a seam or partition in His hair, after the manner of the Nazarenes. His forehead plain and very delicate; His face without spot or wrinkle, beautified with a lovely red; His nose and mouth so formed as nothing can be reprehended; His beard thickish, in colour like His hair, not very long, but forked; His look innocent and mature; His eyes grey, clear, and quick- In reproving hypocrisy He is terrible; in admonishing, courteous and fair spoken; pleasant in conversation, mixed with gravity. It cannot be remembered that any have seen Him Laugh, but many have seen Him Weep. In proportion of body, most excellent; His hands and arms delicate to behold. In speaking, very temperate, modest, and wise. A man, for His singular beauty, surpassing the children of men”
http://www.thenazareneway.com/likeness_of_our_saviour.htm
I know this to be spurious. I can’t remember the source though. John
[edit] I see Ebor beat me to it [/edit]

mmaccs
http://www.greatdreams.com/shroud_of_turin.htm

Ebor
Quote from: mmaccs on December 30, 2007, 01:43:18 AM
The letter from Pontius Pilate to Tiberius Caesar
This is a reprinting of a letter from Pontius Pilate to Tiberius Caesar describing the physical appearance of Jesus. Copies are in the Congressional Library in Washington, D.C.
I’m sorry.  This “letter” is also a fraud.  “Copies are in the Congressional Library”?  In what form? In what book?  It could be a book that debunks it, for example.  Again, no trustworthy provenance of a manuscript, I’ll have to find the links on this one in the morning. Ebor

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Ebor
Quote from: prodromos on December 30, 2007, 01:48:57 AM
I know this to be spurious. I can’t remember the source though.
John
Hi, Prodromos!  It’s been a while. I hope all is well with you. Yes, this is a fake.  Sigh! Ebor

mmaccs
http://www.visionsofjesuschrist.com/weeping459.htm

Jesus permitted Sister Anna to take His photograph on various occasions of His appearance, and in subsequent revelations gave reasons for making Himself visible now in our time.
“Listen to me. I am above this earth. I allow myself to be seen after many warnings”
“I make myself visible in order to bring back souls.”
“I love mankind and I make myself visible in order to give my warnings of mercy”
“Many do not listen to me because they do not believe in my reality”

PeterTheAleut
Quote from: mmaccs on December 30, 2007, 01:46:53 AM
Quote from: mmaccs on December 30, 2007, 01:01:12 AM
A picture of Jesus Christ? How many times have you heard someone say: “We don’t know what Jesus looked like.” When you are looking at a picture of a blue-eyed, golden brown-haired Jesus with a shepherd’s rod in one hand and a lamb in the other, you know that Jesus didn’t look like that–it is just an artist’s representation. It is, however, possible that one of His contemporaries painted a portrait of our Savior. Eusebius of the latter second century claims to have seen color portraits of our Jesus. The following picture just might be genuine. It is purported to have been engraved by a contemporary of Jesus in the first century. When we first saw it, it was accompanied by the following text:
From the only authentic likeness of our Savior cut on an emerald by command of Tiberius Caesar, and given to Pope Innocent VIII from the treasury at Constantinople, by the emperor of the Turks, for the ransom of his brother, then a captive of the Christians.
http://www.revelado.org/likeness.htm

EDIT:  Excerpt copied and pasted from article to make post compliant with forum policy.  – PeterTheAleut
Is there some reason you quoted your own post only to say nothing in reply?

Ebor
Quote from: PeterTheAleut on December 30, 2007, 02:40:39 AM
Is there some reason you quoted your own post only to say nothing in reply?
I think it was the enlarging of the words “by command of Tiberius Caesar”.  However, emphasis doesn’t make words true.  Just saying that something was commanded by an ancient Roman Emperor or any other long dead person doesn’t mean that it really happened.  What corroborating evidence is there that Tiberius really did this?  A bill from a gem merchant?  An imperial record of the order? (If such is claimed where is it found, where can it be read and what is the provenance of the manuscript?) 
Discernment is needed to tell good information from bad; true history from that which is fake or twisted. Ebor

PeterTheAleut
Quote from: Ebor on December 30, 2007, 05:37:46 PM
I think it was the enlarging of the words “by command of Tiberius Caesar”.  However, emphasis doesn’t make words true.  Just saying that something was commanded by an ancient Roman Emperor or any other long dead person doesn’t mean that it really happened.  What corroborating evidence is there that Tiberius really did this?  A bill from a gem merchant?  An imperial record of the order? (If such is claimed where is it found, where can it be read and what is the provenance of the manuscript?)  Discernment is needed to tell good information from bad; true history from that which is fake or twisted. Ebor
Thanks for noticing the enlarged text I failed to notice.

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prodromos
Is it the purpose of this thread to demonstrate how easily some Catholics can fall into spiritual delusion?
Hi Ebor, I’m stuck at home with a fractured ankle. John

PeterTheAleut
Quote from: prodromos on December 30, 2007, 10:19:26 PM
Is it the purpose of this thread to demonstrate how easily some Catholics can fall into spiritual delusion?
Hi Ebor, I’m stuck at home with a fractured ankle. John
OUCH! Sorry to hear about your ankle.  How’d you manage to break it?  Start a thread about it in the Prayer Forum, and I’m sure you’ll get some prayers for your speedy recovery.  I hope the ankle heals up soon.

Ebor
Quote from: prodromos on December 30, 2007, 10:19:26 PM
Is it the purpose of this thread to demonstrate how easily some Catholics can fall into spiritual delusion?
Not just RC, Prodromos.  The “letters” were being put forth in another thread recently by Christodoulos as real and true reports of what Jesus looked like before the Resurrection.  He didn’t like the information that they are not real documents from the first century and that (among other things) made them fraudulent.
mmaccs
FWIW, when Christ revealed Himself to me with the reflection on my bathroom wall (in pretty damn clear detail), it was the long-faced, long-nosed, long-haired, hair-parted, bearded ‘version’… the face on the Shroud. It was a miracle.
So, personally, I think these photographs, portraits and images are genuine.

mmaccs
Not that it matters.

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PeterTheAleut
Quote from: mmaccs on December 31, 2007, 03:14:03 AM
FWIW, when Christ revealed Himself to me with the reflection on my bathroom wall (in pretty damn clear detail), it was the long-faced, long-nosed, long-haired, hair-parted, bearded ‘version’… the face on the Shroud. It was a miracle. So, personally, I think these photographs, portraits and images are genuine.
How do you know it was Christ who revealed himself to you?  Have you received any resolution yet to your issue with the white lights you keep seeing?

Credo. InDeum
One of the folk here posted part of a notification about Mrs. Vassula Ryden. Here’s the full text, it isn’t very long.
NOTIFICATION ON VASSULA RYDEN (6 October 1995) Congregation for the Doctrine of the Faith
Many bishops, priests, religious and lay people have sought an authoritative judgement from this Congregation on the activity of Mrs. Vassula Ryden, a Greek Orthodox residing in Switzerland, who in speech and in writing is spreading in Catholic circles throughout the world messages attributed to alleged heavenly revelations.
A calm, attentive examination of the entire question, undertaken by this Congregation in order to “test the spirits to see whether they are of God” (cf. 1 Jn 4:1), has brought out-in addition to positive aspects – a number of basic elements that must be considered negative in the light of Catholic doctrine.
In addition to pointing out the suspect nature of the ways in which these alleged revelations have occurred, it is necessary to underscore several doctrinal errors they contain.
Among other things, ambiguous language is used in speaking of the Persons of the Holy Trinity, to the point of confusing the specific names and functions of the Divine Persons. These alleged revelations predict an imminent period when the Antichrist will prevail in the Church. In millenarian style, it is prophesied that God is going to make a final glorious intervention which will initiate on earth, even before Christ’s definitive coming, an era of peace and universal prosperity. Furthermore, the proximate arrival is foretold of a Church which would be a kind of pan-Christian community, contrary to Catholic doctrine.
The fact that the aforementioned errors no longer appear in Ryden’s later writings is a sign that the alleged “heavenly messages” are merely the result of private meditations.
Moreover, by habitually sharing in the sacraments of the Catholic Church even though she is Greek Orthodox, Mrs. Ryden is causing considerable surprise in various circles of the Catholic Church. She appears to be putting herself above all ecclesiastical jurisdiction and every canonical norm, and in effect, is creating an ecumenical disorder that irritates many authorities, ministers and faithful of her own Church, as she puts herself outside the ecclesiastical discipline of the latter.

Given the negative effect of Vassula Ryden’s activities, despite some positive aspects, this Congregation requests the intervention of the Bishops so that their faithful may be suitably informed and that no opportunity may be provided in their Dioceses for the dissemination of her ideas. Lastly, the Congregation invites all the faithful not to regard Mrs. Vassula Ryden’s writings and speeches as supernatural and to preserve the purity of the faith that the Lord has entrusted to the Church.
Vatican City, 6 October 1995.
——————————————————————————–
Taken from: L’Osservatore Romano, Weekly Edition in English, 25 October 1995, 12. L’Osservatore Romano is the newspaper of the Holy See. The Weekly Edition in English is published for the US by: The Cathedral Foundation
L’Osservatore Romano English Edition P.O. Box 777, Baltimore, MD 21201
http://www.ewtn.com/library/CURIA/CDFRYDN1.HTM

buzuxi
All these images are non-canonical, they are not part of the authentic Tradition of the Ekklesia. Images of Christ or His Mother are not to be “worldly” or earthly looking. The images or if you prefer your photographs are not to be venerated and are contrary to the holy canons of the Church.

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PeterTheAleut
Quote from: buzuxi on January 01, 2008, 05:28:35 AM
All these images are non-canonical, they are not part of the authentic Tradition of the Ekklesia. Images of Christ or His Mother are not to be “worldly” or earthly looking. The images or if you prefer your photographs are not to be venerated and are contrary to the holy canons of the Church.

Somehow, I don’t think mmaccs cares whether these pictures are consistent with Holy Tradition and worthy of veneration.  I gather that the OP is asserting, instead, that these images are realistic portraits of Christ as He appeared when He walked this earth.  Evidently, mmaccs thinks Christ appeared to him personally and looks very similar to the man pictured in these images.

stashko
Quote from: mmaccs on December 31, 2007, 03:14:03 AM
FWIW, when Christ revealed Himself to me with the reflection on my bathroom wall (in pretty damn clear detail), it was the long-faced, long-nosed, long-haired, hair-parted, bearded ‘version’… the face on the Shroud. It was a miracle. So, personally, I think these photographs, portraits and images are genuine.
It’s just so weird the Lord would appear in your bathroom in your private time he couldn’t wait till you exited… stashko

Fr. George
I think we’ve had enough fun.  No more supposed photos of the Lord.  Thank you!
Anyone reading this thread who may think that the photos are ‘legit’ should heed the warnings of many of the users as to their “authenticity” or lack thereof. – Cleveland, Global Moderator

Luis Garza
I realize that links about Vassula’s excommunion are out of date, this is the link out dated
http://www.ecclesia.gr/greek/holysynod/commitees/heresies/heresies-0008.htm

I’m looking for a link to official web site of an Orthodox Church in English or Spanish that contains the Vassula’s excommunion
I think this informations is useful because there are people that believe Vassula is an Orthodox Christian in communion with Orthodox Church.

Salpy
I think I already linked this, but reply 4 of this thread has a translation of the excommunication:
http://www.orthodoxchristianity.net/forum/index.php/topic,9511.msg128071.html#msg128071

I also would not mind seeing an official Orthodox Church website post her excommunication in English and even discuss it.  I’m also surprised at the lack of printed material on her, outside of the internet.  I’m waiting for someone to produce a pamphlet discussing her and warning about her.  Printing out pages from the internet and handing them to someone is not as easy as just having a pamphlet to hand out. 

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Luis Garza
Quote from: Salpy on November 19, 2008, 01:52:38 AM
I think I already linked this, but reply 4 of this thread has a translation of the excommunication:
http://www.orthodoxchristianity.net/forum/index.php/topic,9511.msg128071.html#msg128071

I also would not mind seeing an official Orthodox Church website post her excommunication in English and even discuss it.  I’m also surprised at the lack of printed material on her, outside of the internet.  I’m waiting for someone to produce a pamphlet discussing her and warning about her.  Printing out pages from the internet and handing them to someone is not as easy as just having a pamphlet to hand out. 
Yes I saw that, but there are people that say excommunicate is not an exactly word used in Greek.
That’s the reason I want an official communicate in English or Spanish that say without possibility of error that Vassula is excommunicated.

I believe Vassula is not orthodox at least her ideas, for me is sufficient to not attend her, but there are people that does not know Vassula is excommunicated and think they are free to follow her in the link http://www.ecclesia.gr/greek/holysynod/commitees/heresies/heresies-0008.htm

I only can see this:
Η σελίδα που αναζητάτε δεν είναι διαθέσιμη. Εάν αναζητάτε κάποιο κείμενο του Μακαριστού Χριστοδούλου,
παρακαλώ επισκεφθείτε το ηλεκτρονικό αρχείο κειμένων του. Εναλλακτικά, μπορείτε να επισκεφθείτε μια από τις βασικές ενότητες της ιστοσελίδας, από τη διεύθυνση: http://www.ecclesia.gr.
Σε κάθε περίπτωση, εάν συναντάτε δυσκολίες στην εύρεση περιεχομένου, παρακαλούμε επικοινωνήστε με το τεχνικό τμήμα στη διεύθυνση webmaster@ecclesia.gr

SolEX01
“Page Not Found” in Greek. I wouldn’t expect much help from the Church of Greece in locating that document.  You could try a web archive site like http://www.archive.org to see if someone in the world has the text.

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Luis Garza
Hi I found this link I think it is the same published before
http://www.ecclesia.gr/greek/press/ekklisia/EKKLISIA_2001_Iounios/6PAPAS.PDF

Page 507, but it is in Greek and also I don’t understand it, may be I must feel the translation in this forums is enough.
SolEX01
Copying and pasting from the Greek PDF file into here results in gibberish. The 3rd Paragraph of Page 507 roughly translates as “Vassula Ryden has fallen away from the Orthodox Church, so be it.”
Yes, you have found the article where the Church of Greece excommunicated Vassula Ryden and her partner.   
Irish Hermit
Can be brought up using The Wayback Machine
http://web.archive.org/web/20070407151645/http://www.ecclesia.gr/greek/holysynod/commitees/heresies/heresies-0008.htm

Irish Hermit
From the owner of a website which keeps track of Vassula…
I have been taking advantage of the quiet summer months to make some long due updates to the website:
–          The text in English of the 2001 decision of the Holy Synod’s Committee on Heresies of the Greek Orthodox Church stating that “Vassula Ryden has expelled herself from the Orthodox Church”
http://www.infovassula.ch/tliggreekorthodox.htm

–          The 2004 Communication from the Holy Synod of the Catholic Hierarchy of Greece requesting that the faithful refrain from participating in Mrs. Ryden’s activities without the authorization of the Hierarchical Palace, and asking religious communities not to make their premises available for TLIG events. I included an image of the communication.
http://www.infovassula.ch/tligtheologians.htm#Communication

 –          Added a new FAQ based on an article already circulated to this list last year: May Vassula Receive Holy Communion when participating at Catholic Masses?
http://www.infovassula.ch/tligfaq.htm#mayvassula

Warmly in Christ, Maria Laura Pio www.infovassula.ch

ozgeorge
Quote from: Irish Hermit on December 24, 2008, 04:37:20 PM
–          The text in English of the 2001 decision of the Holy Synod’s Committee on Heresies of the Greek Orthodox Church stating that “Vassula Ryden has expelled herself from the Orthodox Church”
http://www.infovassula.ch/tliggreekorthodox.htm

I was the one who told Maria about that!

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Irish Hermit
An interesting analysis of Vassula Ryden’s writings from an Orthodox perspective has been recently posted on the blog “A Catechumen’s Tale”. I am copying hereunder an extract of the article and recommend that you read the complete version here: http://catechumens-tale.blogspot.com/search/label/Vassula%20Rydén

Contra Vassula Rydén
Some time recently, a good friend of mine sent me a link to a website and told me, “The Orthodox should be warned about this.” I clicked on the link and was met with a website called “True Life in God,” peppered with iconography that made me think for a moment that I might be looking at the archdiocese website. Instead, it was the website for a woman named Vassula Rydén, and on the main page speaks of angels and messages. I felt a shrill go up the back of my neck, realizing that I was dealing with someone who claimed to have had personal revelations with God and was attempting to share it with the world. As I did further research, what I found shocked me, and I began to realize that perhaps Christians in general, not just Orthodox, should be warned about this woman. I was even more inspired when I learned that friends of friends (even those attending my church) were following this woman like a prophet of old, and were even giving her prayer books to their children to read. Therefore, this struck rather close to home.

The casual reader should be warned that this is perhaps the longest post I will make on my blog for some time, but I believe the time spent will not be wasted. Heresy and controversy within the Church need to be discussed, just as they were hundreds of years ago at the ecumenical councils. No, I am not claiming to be the new Athanasius, ready to take on the Arians – God forbid the prideful thought from entering my mind! However, I do want to at least be a source of education for some and protection for others. I pray that God will allow me to be an instrument for Him and in His name alone. Amen.
Who is this Vassula Rydén?
According to her own website (source) she is an ethnic Greek from Egypt who “belongs to the Greek Orthodox Church.” She claims to have started receiving messages from Jesus Himself (through an angel named “Daniel”), beginning in Bangladesh in 1985. According to her website, she has “been invited to speak in more than 70 countries and has given over 900 presentations,” even being asked “at 3 occasions to speak on unity in the World Council of Churches of Geneva.” She has many “Beth Mariam” charity houses for the poor and orphans. She is married to a Lutheran. Her manifestations are, according to her testimonial video, “still continuing” (source).
The first thing that caught my eye was, although she claims to be a Greek Orthodox, her Orthodoxy should rightfully be called into question. In both her visions and speeches she speaks of the “immaculate heart” of both Jesus and the Virgin Mary, a concept decidedly Roman Catholic both in origin and use. She is said to have handed out rosaries to people and paid homage at Roman Catholic shrines, even going so far as to claim a message from God saying “blessed are those who will pray the Rosary” (source). She believes in purgatory and teaches that our prayers save people from Purgatory (source). She claims to have visited hell and saw something closer to Bill Weise’s view than the Church’s belief on hell (source). Her teaching on the Holy Spirit is more akin to Charismatic preachers on late-night TBN than the writings of the Church Fathers. Her views on universalism and ecumenical movements (which I’ll get to later on in this post) would be better placed in the sermons of the Emergent Church. Overall, I don’t find anything Orthodox about her.
My feelings seemed to have some merit, as I found out that she really had no solid knowledge of her Orthodox faith – let alone any Christian faith at all. She admits in her testimonial video (source, again) that she “wasn’t a Church-goer” and that she “wasn’t looking for God at all.” She knew “God existed” and “knew a little bit,” but never “had any catechism.” When she got married she “abandoned” her Orthodoxy and became involved in the international organization that sent her to places across the world, neither her nor her husband practicing religion in the meanwhile. Then, in 1985 in Bangladesh, she was writing down a list of groceries and suddenly saw her “guardian angel”, who physically held her hand and began to write what he wanted her to say. He introduced himself as Daniel. She was excited and began to talk to Daniel. He instructed her to read scripture, and then continued to deliver messages from God afterward.
Something seemed familiar about this experience, and it was then that I realized the way that the supposed angel Daniel communicated with Vassula is a way many mediums supposedly communicate with ghosts. The method is known as “automatic writing” or alternatively “ghost scribbles.” It entails a person scribbling on a piece of paper and allowing the ghost to write for the person, sending out messages that can be either crystal clear or incoherent (the 1980 film “The Changeling” features this). Such communication really belongs in the hands of the occult – why, therefore, should we be expected to follow theology based on unorthodox methods of communicating with God? It would be like revelation given through tarot cards.
Of course what also bothered me was the fact she was receiving supposed revelations from an angel. I couldn’t help but think to myself: who else has received revelation from God? Some names come to mind: Mani, Mohammad, Joseph Smith…but perhaps this list is unfair. Daniel, for example, met and spoke with Gabriel, yet he was a prophet and the role of prophets ended with John the Baptist (Luke 16:16). It’s also worth mentioning that the minute Daniel came in contact with Gabriel he became frightened and fell on his face (Dan 8:17). Likewise, the shepherds who saw the angel announcing Christ’s birth were just as afraid, for the first words out of the angel’s mouth are “fear not” (Luke 2:10). The apostle John, seeing an angel twice, is so overcome he prostrates twice and has to be told not to (Rev. 19:10; 22:8). Here we have three groups of people in scripture – a devout prophet of God, humble laymen, and the most beloved disciple – who all reacted with fear of God at the first sight of an angel. How did Vassula first respond when she met her angel?
I was so happy that I was almost flying around the house, my feet barely touching the ground and I was repeating loudly: “I am the luckiest person on earth, and I am probably the only person on earth who could communicate in such a way with her angel!” [Source]
Keep in mind that this is after a supposed angel of God has manifested himself to her and has touched her hand and made it move and write – her reaction seems the polar opposite to how those in the past who simply saw an angel. This isn’t entirely new – there are people who claim to be watching TV, see Jesus walk in, and kept watching TV like nothing had happened. Oftentimes when a person claims to have met an angel or Christ Himself and not given the reaction that has scriptural precedent, the very claim itself is false.
Perhaps before we pass judgment on Vassula’s revelation, we should review the essence of these revelations in detail. They’re readily available on her website, posted in chronological order and even in order of subject. They are also quite voluminous: I started reading from the start in 1985, and after two or three hours had only gotten to 1987. Nevertheless, they must be looked at to truly understand the essence of her message.
Continued here: http://catechumens-tale.blogspot.com/search/label/Vassula%20Rydén  

Salpy
Thank you for posting and linking this.  The article is very good.

filipinopilgrim
Vassula Ryden, a visionary known for her “private revelations” that promote indifferentism, and who continues to be enthusiastically supported by many Catholic and Orthodox clergy and hierarchs despite occasional warnings from the Vatican (and a few timid ones from the Orthodox Churches), enthusiastically relates in the latest report on her website that as part of her Mission in Romania on May 2010, a Romanian Orthodox priest invited a Roman Catholic priest to concelebrate the Divine Liturgy of Pentecost.
Full text of blog post can be read here:  http://rorate-caeli.blogspot.com/2010/09/romanian-orthodox-and-roman-catholic.html

Excerpt of blog post added to post to enforce rule against naked links.  -PeterTheAleut

LBK
Quote
Vassula Ryden, a visionary known for her “private revelations” that promote indifferentism, and who continues to be enthusiastically supported by many Catholic and Orthodox clergy and hierarchs despite occasional warnings from the Vatican (and a few timid ones from the Orthodox Churches)
What’s the writer of this drivel been smokin’? 

filipinopilgrim
Quote from: LBK on September 21, 2010, 02:06:05 AM
Quote
Vassula Ryden, a visionary known for her “private revelations” that promote indifferentism, and who continues to be enthusiastically supported by many Catholic and Orthodox clergy and hierarchs despite occasional warnings from the Vatican (and a few timid ones from the Orthodox Churches)
What’s the writer of this drivel been smokin’? 

The “many” here pertains primarily to the Catholic clergy and bishops. Yes, Vassula counts quite a number of supporters from among them…

http://www.orthodoxchristianity.net/forum/index.php/topic,5923.200/wap2.html
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Irish Hermit
Quote from: filipinopilgrim on September 21, 2010, 01:55:36 AM
Vassula Ryden, a visionary known for her “private revelations” that promote indifferentism, and who continues to be enthusiastically supported by many Catholic and Orthodox clergy and hierarchs despite occasional warnings from the Vatican (and a few timid ones from the Orthodox Churches).

Hardly timid.  Several years back her case was examined in Athens and the Greek Church stated she was excommunicated.  She then initiated a court case against the Greek Church but it was abandoned.

filipinopilgrim
Quote from: Irish Hermit on September 21, 2010, 02:22:51 AM
Quote from: filipinopilgrim on September 21, 2010, 01:55:36 AM
Vassula Ryden, a visionary known for her “private revelations” that promote indifferentism, and who continues to be enthusiastically supported by many Catholic and Orthodox clergy and hierarchs despite occasional warnings from the Vatican (and a few timid ones from the Orthodox Churches).
Hardly timid.  Several years back her case was examined in Athens and the Greek Church stated she was excommunicated.  She then initiated a court case against the Greek Church but it was abandoned.
I changed the post to remove “timid” even before I saw your response. However, if you look through Vassula’s website, you’ll note that her relations with the Greek Orthodox Patriarchate of Alexandria remain cordial… too cordial for comfort.
Irish Hermit
Quote from: filipinopilgrim on September 21, 2010, 02:35:38 AM
I changed the post to remove “timid” even before I saw your response. However, if you look through Vassula’s website, you’ll note that her relations with the Greek Orthodox Patriarchate of Alexandria remain cordial… too cordial for comfort.
I adore Mrs Ryden!
1. She and her locutions and her magic writings had the approval of Catholic bishops at the time when she had abandoned her first husband and was living in a long-term relationship with her lover (now her second husband.)   *Anybody* who can gain the approval of her visions by the Catholic hierarchy as legitimate when she was living in mortal sin has to be special!! Just shows how wrong we have all been to think that sexual purity is a prerequisite to being a good Christian, and certainly for being chosen by Jesus as His voice in the world.
2.  Most of all, I adore her for the locution from Jesus which she revealed on her Russian tour, that He had revealed that the Patriarch of Moscow would assume control of the united Universal Church, displacing the Pope of Rome.
I vote to canonise her before she dies!  

Irish Hermit
The text in English of the 2001 decision of the Greek Holy Synod’s Committee on Heresies of the Greek Orthodox Church stating that “Vassula Ryden has expelled herself from the Orthodox Church”
http://www.infovassula.ch/tliggreekorthodox.htm

filipinopilgrim
Quote from: Irish Hermit on September 21, 2010, 03:32:59 AM
The text in English of the 2001 decision of the Greek Holy Synod’s Committee on Heresies of the Greek Orthodox Church stating that “Vassula Ryden has expelled herself from the Orthodox Church”
http://www.infovassula.ch/tliggreekorthodox.htm

Somebody ought to tell Patriarch Theodore II of Alexandria.
See this: http://www.tlig.org/en/spirituality/pilgrimages/egypt2008/

See also this quote from the report in the abovementioned link:
At night, in the Church of the Annunciation, we attended the magnificent Easter celebration, receiving Holy Communion and the Holy Light of the Resurrection from His Beatitude the Patriarch. Just before midnight, all the lights of the church were switched off and at precisely midnight His Beatitude chanted the hymn “Here, receive the Light”. We were all impressed with the openness of his Beatitude when it came to Holy Communion from the first day, because he never made any distinction between the Orthodox and the Roman Catholics but gave the Body and Blood of our Lord Jesus Christ to us all. Praise be to the Lord and all glory to Him. Amen.

http://www.orthodoxchristianity.net/forum/index.php/topic,5923.205/wap2.html
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Irish Hermit
I think that Ryden is deluded (in a state of plani-prelest) and in need of spiritual and psychiatric assistance.  The revelation from Jesus in Russia proves that.  The belief that the revelations and magic writings continued during the years when she was openly living in adultery prove it.
Whether or not the Patriarch of Alexandria communed Catholics, I do not know.  There are no photos of this in the article you reference although she has plenty of photos of the Alexandria visit and the Patriarch.

danman916
Quote from: Irish Hermit on September 21, 2010, 03:09:17 AM
1. She and her locutions and her magic writings had the approval of Catholic bishops at the time when she had abandoned her first husband and was living in a long-term relationship with her lover (now her second husband.)   *Anybody* who can gain the approval of her visions by the Catholic hierarchy as legitimate when she was living in mortal sin has to be special!! Just shows how wrong we have all been to think that sexual purity is a prerequisite to being a good Christian, and certainly for being chosen by Jesus as His voice in the world.
Can you cite evidence of the Catholic Bishops approving of her locutions and writings?

John Larocque
The CDF doctrinal judgment from 1997 against her works (headed by Cardinal Ratzinger) remains in force. Cardinal Levada iterated that it was inappropriate for Catholics to take part in her prayer groups.
This is a different kind of ecumenism: a list of EO and RCC condemnations of Vassula. Interestingly enough, the CDF in 1995 noted her intercommunion as an irritant.
http://www.infovassula.ch/dermine.htm

Quote
Moreover, by habitually sharing in the sacraments of the Catholic Church even though she is Greek Orthodox, Mrs. Ryden is causing considerable surprise in various circles of the Catholic Church. She appears to be putting herself above all ecclesiastical jurisdiction and every canonical norm, and in effect, is creating an ecumenical disorder that irritates many authorities, ministers and faithful of her own Church, as she puts herself outside the ecclesiastical discipline of the latter.
There seems to be no end to her mischief, although she seems to be doing a fairly good job smoking out the ecumenists.
The webmaster of Rorate Caeli offered this comment to the Vassula-inspired ecumenism.
The unity that counts, the unity that will actually last, the unity that will not contribute towards even greater disunity, is unity of faith. Events like this do not cause unity — this and similar events only cause greater scandal, and therefore greater disunity. To protest this scandal is not to promote disunity but precisely to defend the meaning of true unity.
I find it very interesting that the proponents of false unity want to move us towards unity by disregarding precisely one of the principles upon which Catholicism and Orthodoxy are united, namely, that intercommunion can come only after agreement on doctrine. Since when did unity come by creating disunity over yet another principle? <snip>
Those who acknowledge the obvious fact that Catholics and Orthodox do not agree on essential matters, and therefore can neither concelebrate nor routinely receive Communion at each other’s liturgies, are condemned as apostles of disunity, ridiculed as upholders of outdated polemics, and are threatened with divine judgement for “prolonging the causes of division” and “doing the devil’s work”! It is as if to acknowledge a sad reality is to be guilty of it and to celebrate the fact — an absurd notion, as anyone can see.
No, we acknowledge that there is division between Orthodoxy and Catholicism, a division wide enough to prevent meaningful concelebration or intercommunion, because we cannot compromise over the truth, and not because we rejoice over division or would like it to continue. To disregard doctrine makes communion quite pointless, don’t you think?
Fr. Ambrose offered a translation of a Greek church excommunication on the CA board in 2007.

danman916
Quote from: John Larocque on September 21, 2010, 03:22:16 PM
The CDF doctrinal judgment from 1997 against her works (headed by Cardinal Ratzinger) remain in force. Cardinal Levada iterated that it was inappropriate for Catholics to take part in her prayer groups.
So these are in force, yet Father Ambrose says that Catholic Bishops approve of her locutions and writings?
I will be interested to see whether or not Father Ambrose can demonstrate any proof for his claim.

John Larocque
She has her followers and supporters within the clergy. Fr. Rene Laurentin is an apologist for both this apparition and that of the Medjugorje phenomenon. Are these supporters following the CDF? Absolutely not. Even just a few months ago, Cardinal Schoenborn got in a bit of trouble for appearing to approve Medjugorje by citing positive things that have occurred there. (Cardinal Ratzinger was not widely seen as friendly to it).
Here’s a small list of supporters of Vassula.
http://unitypublishing.com/Apparitions/Vassula.html

Quote
Why do we say “Thank God for Vassula”? Look at who promoted her: Father Ken Roberts, of EWTN, Dr. Rosalle Turton, the 101 Foundation, Mr. John Haffert, former head of the Blue Army and major promoter of Garabandal, Father Rene Laurentin, so-called Marian Theologian, “Mary’s People”, a branch of The National Catholic Register, The Daughters of St. Paul Book Stores, The Marian Centers of Medjugorje; Father Michael O’Carroll, (former teacher at Notre Dame and involved in the Charismatic Movement); The Riehle Foundation, (promoters of “The Final Hour”); Michael H. Brown, (author of “The Final Hour” and “The Day Will Come”); and others. These organizations and people pass themselves off as experts in discernment and apparitions. The fact that they were fooled by such a poor mystic is proof that they are not.

http://www.orthodoxchristianity.net/forum/index.php/topic,5923.210/wap2.html
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filipinopilgrim
Quote from: John Larocque on September 21, 2010, 03:38:44 PM
She has her followers and supporters within the clergy. Fr. Rene Laurentin is an apologist for both this apparition and that of the Medjugorje phenomenon. Are these supporters following the CDF? Absolutely not. Even just a few months ago, Cardinal Schoenborn got in a bit of trouble for appearing to approve Medjugorje by citing positive things that have occurred there. (Cardinal Ratzinger was not widely seen as friendly to it).
Here’s a small list of supporters of Vassula. http://unitypublishing.com/Apparitions/Vassula.html

Quote
Why do we say “Thank God for Vassula”? Look at who promoted her: Father Ken Roberts, of EWTN, Dr. Rosalle Turton, the 101 Foundation, Mr. John Haffert, former head of the Blue Army and major promoter of Garabandal, Father Rene Laurentin, so-called Marian Theologian, “Mary’s People”, a branch of The National Catholic Register, The Daughters of St. Paul Book Stores, The Marian Centers of Medjugorje; Father Michael O’Carroll, (former teacher at Notre Dame and involved in the Charismatic Movement); The Riehle Foundation, (promoters of “The Final Hour”); Michael H. Brown, (author of “The Final Hour” and “The Day Will Come”); and others. These organizations and people pass themselves off as experts in discernment and apparitions. The fact that they were fooled by such a poor mystic is proof that they are not.

The fact that so many top Catholic theologians and lay leaders are easily fooled by paranormal phenomena that would have been denounced out of hand by any Catholic priest prior to Vatican II, and by anyone really familiar with Catholic ascetical and mystical theology, just goes to show how so many Catholics are ignorant of their own tradition.
There are quite a number of Asian prelates who openly support Vassula, such as Archbishop Ramon Arguelles of Lipa, Philippines and Telesphore Cardinal Toppo of Ranchi, India. They fit into a tendency that first appeared in the 1970’s, and which was strengthened in the reign of Pope John Paul II, whose own attitude towards apparitions tended to the very soft side, and during whose reign it was impolitic to appear to be “not Marian enough” — I speak of the tendency of far too many Catholic bishops and theologians to support all sorts of reported visions and private revelations. Furthermore, the “Marian movement” in the Catholic Church provided (and still provides) significant support for the Vatican’s positions of moral matters, and really, during the 1980’s and 1990’s, in Catholicism, as long as one supported the Pope’s teachings on moral matters one was considered “orthodox””.

Alveus Lacuna
Quote from: Irish Hermit on September 21, 2010, 04:36:08 AM
Whether or not the Patriarch of Alexandria communed Catholics, I do not know.  There are no photos of this in the article you reference although she has plenty of photos of the Alexandria visit and the Patriarch.
I actually saw a video of this with my own eyes. He clearly communes not only laypeople, which in a cathedral is excusable because of the number of people present. He can’t interview everybody! But he communes Roman Catholic priests and monks, which are very distinguishable by their attire.

Salpy
A thread about Vassula and her followers being communed by His Beatitude can be found here:
http://www.orthodoxchristianity.net/forum/index.php/topic,24729.0.html#lastPost

stanley123
Quote from: filipinopilgrim on September 21, 2010, 02:09:22 AM
The “many” here pertains primarily to the Catholic clergy and bishops. Yes, Vassula counts quite a number of supporters from among them…
Perhaps you have not read: NOTIFICATION ON VASSULA RYDEN (6 October 1995)
Congregation for the Doctrine of the Faith :
” Given the negative effect of Vassula Ryden’s activities, despite some positive aspects, this Congregation requests the intervention of the Bishops so that their faithful may be suitably informed and that no opportunity may be provided in their Dioceses for the dissemination of her ideas.”
http://www.ewtn.com/library/curia/cdfrydn1.htm

John Larocque
Quote from: filipinopilgrim on September 21, 2010, 09:04:31 PM
There are quite a number of Asian prelates who openly support Vassula, such as Archbishop Ramon Arguelles of Lipa, Philippines and Telesphore Cardinal Toppo of Ranchi, India. They fit into a tendency that first appeared in the 1970’s, and which was strengthened in the reign of Pope John Paul II, whose own attitude towards apparitions tended to the very soft side, and during whose reign it was impolitic to appear to be “not Marian enough” — I speak of the tendency of far too many Catholic bishops and theologians to support all sorts of reported visions and private revelations. Furthermore, the “Marian movement” in the Catholic Church provided (and still provides) significant support for the Vatican’s positions of moral matters, and really, during the 1980’s and 1990’s, in Catholicism, as long as one supported the Pope’s teachings on moral matters one was considered “orthodox””.

I was intimately familiar with some of the ultra-conservative apparitions. Oddly enough, even though the apparitions were themselves false, I still believe that the fundamental premise of a few of them are is correct. The “remnant” mentality of the ultra-traditionalists and condemned sites like Bayside… and St. Justin Popovic! – adhere to a common premise that the Roman Catholic church fell from a very great height. The sedevacantists go too far, given what they claim to believe, and the SSPX are holding on to an untenable position (in communion with the “fallen” organization), yet in some ways they are a reminder of how far the Latin church has fallen.

http://www.orthodoxchristianity.net/forum/index.php/topic,5923.215/wap2.html
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Salpy
Quote from: filipinopilgrim on September 21, 2010, 03:45:13 AM
Quote from: Irish Hermit on September 21, 2010, 03:32:59 AM
The text in English of the 2001 decision of the Greek Holy Synod’s Committee on Heresies of the Greek Orthodox Church stating that “Vassula Ryden has expelled herself from the Orthodox Church”
http://www.infovassula.ch/tliggreekorthodox.htm
Somebody ought to tell Patriarch Theodore II of Alexandria.
See this: http://www.tlig.org/en/spirituality/pilgrimages/egypt2008/

See also this quote from the report in the abovementioned link:
At night, in the Church of the Annunciation, we attended the magnificent Easter celebration, receiving Holy Communion and the Holy Light of the Resurrection from His Beatitude the Patriarch. Just before midnight, all the lights of the church were switched off and at precisely midnight His Beatitude chanted the hymn “Here, receive the Light”. We were all impressed with the openness of his Beatitude when it came to Holy Communion from the first day, because he never made any distinction between the Orthodox and the Roman Catholics but gave the Body and Blood of our Lord Jesus Christ to us all. Praise be to the Lord and all glory to Him. Amen.
I would take with a grain of salt anything you read in the tlig website, or any other report put out by Vassula’s followers.  One of the characteristics of her group is that they are very aggressive in seeking out endorsements of Vassula and her messages, to the point of twisting the truth and saying someone has endorsed her when they have not.  This has been discussed in other threads about her.  You can find them by clicking on the Vassula tag below.
I have no doubt that Vassula and her group went as pilgrims to Alexandria, took communion, and were received by His Beatitude.  However, I would imagine that His Beatitude communes and meets with groups of pilgrims all the time.  I’m sure he gets his picture taken with hundreds of pilgrims every year.  The fact that Vassula did this does not necessarily mean that His Beatitude supports her or endorses her messages.  He probably had no idea who she was.

Irish Hermit
Here is a website run by someone who used to be a Vassula devotee.
http://www.infovassula.ch/

John Larocque
Maria wrote of her experiences with the Vassula cult to professional apparition-debunker Rick Salbato. Vassula even spoke at the World Council of Churches! There’s no date on the emails but they may have preceded Maria’s decision to start her own information site on Vassula.
http://www.unitypublishing.com/Apparitions/VassulaEmails.html

Check out the Triadology of Vassula:
http://www.catholicplanet.com/apparitions/false13.htm

Quote
February 17, 1987: “Vassula why, why were you avoiding calling Me Father? Vassula I love being called Father. I am Father of all humanity.”
Filioque! (couldn’t resist)
The website author offered these insights:
Quote
Although she claims to be married to Jesus, she refers to him as ‘Father’ and he supposedly calls her ‘daughter.’ The messages also call the Spirit the Bridegroom, whereas Christ is considered the Bridegroom of his Spouse the Church. But these messages replace the Church with Vassula as Christ’s Bride.

The use of the term ‘Captor’ to refer to Christ’s relationship with anyone is contrary to all that the Church teaches. God gave us freewill to such an extent that we can even choose serious sin and choose, in effect, Hellfire. Christ is the Captor of no one. He gives grace freely and he does not control anyone, even those closest to Him.
The claim that she is Christ’s altar exalts her above the Virgin Mary and above the rest of humanity. Such self-exalting claims are characteristic of false private revelation.

danman916
Quote from: filipinopilgrim on September 21, 2010, 09:04:31 PM
The fact that so many top Catholic theologians and lay leaders are easily fooled by paranormal phenomena that would have been denounced out of hand by any Catholic priest prior to Vatican II, and by anyone really familiar with Catholic ascetical and mystical theology, just goes to show how so many Catholics are ignorant of their own tradition.
Oh, Puleez. This is nothing more than polemics again. Geez.
danman916
Still waiting to see if Irish Hermit can demonstrate any proof for his claim in reply #5:
her locutions and her magic writings had the approval of Catholic bishops at the time when she had abandoned her first husband and was living in a long-term relationship with her lover (now her second husband.)   *Anybody* who can gain the approval of her visions by the Catholic hierarchy as legitimate when she was living in mortal sin has to be special!!  Just shows how wrong we have all been to think that sexual purity is a prerequisite to being a good Christian, and certainly for being chosen by Jesus as His voice in the world.

http://www.orthodoxchristianity.net/forum/index.php/topic,5923.220/wap2.html
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Irish Hermit
Years ago we discussed these matters on CAF but I never thought them important enough to archive.  However I see that Ryden has some of the testimonials on her website.
Cardinal Franjo Kuharic
Archbishop of Zagreb
February 1995
Vassula travels the world evangelizing for Christian unity; obedience to the Pope; veneration of the Eucharist; devotion to the Sacred Heart of Jesus; and especially, a Gospel morality of life; as well as for deep religious conversion of the world. Vassula Ryden has met with the Pope, with cardinals and with bishops around the world. This is a matter of private revelation and we allow her to speak because what she says conforms to Gospel truth.
His Eminence, Wildrid Cardinal Napier of the Archdiocese of Durban, South Africa
It is therefore reasonable to state categorically that as far as the Church is concerned Vassula poses no threat to the Catholic Faith whatsoever. Indeed the messages which are communicated through her are consistent with the Church’s own call to repentance and a return to the basics of the faith, in particular the basic prayers such as the Rosary and other devotions once so common in the Catholic family and parish spiritual life.
Cardinal Telesphore P. Toppo
Archbishop of Ranchi
Cardinal Toppo introduced Vassula when she came to speak in his Diocese back in November of 2004. Below is an excerpt from his speech:
 “The surprising thing is that Vassula did not have any catechetical instruction, leave alone theological training what so-ever and yet her charismatic teaching seems to be in conformity to Scripture, Tradition and the writings of Scholars and Saints…” etc., etc.
http://www.tlig.org/en/testimonies/churchpos/sfeirwelcome/

danman916
and none of those was an “approval” of her “locutions and magic writings”. You’re stretching the point to try to fit a round peg into a square hole to smear Catholicism again.
In the link that you provided on your later post, i found the following:
http://www.infovassula.ch/tligchurchposition.htm

3)      Finally, it remains inappropriate for Catholics to take part in prayer groups established by Mrs Rydén. Concerning the question of ecumenical meetings, the faithful are to follow the norms of the Ecumenical Directory, of the Code of Canon Law (canons: 215; 223 §2 and 383 §3) and of Diocesan Ordinaries.
It is hardly “Bishop’s approval” when the prefect of the CFD, Cardinal Levada, is stating this, as it has much more authority than the quotes you provided.

Irish Hermit
Quote from: danman916 on September 22, 2010, 10:09:06 AM
and none of those was an “approval” of her “locutions and magic writings”. You’re stretching the point to try to fit a round peg into a square hole.
If you say so!  A few years ago she almost made it to New Zealand under the aegis of a combined effort of the Anglican and Roman Catholic Churches.  We had enquiries from them if we would like to participate.   I said that it was unlikely and recommended that they contact the local Greek Orthodox Church authorities. They, in their turn, recommended a call to the American Greek Archbishop’s offices.  And they were then informed she is excommunicated and Orthodox should not be participating.  I heard nothing after that.

Irish Hermit
Quote from: danman916 on September 22, 2010, 10:09:06 AM
and none of those was an “approval” of her “locutions and magic writings”. You’re stretching the point to try to fit a round peg into a square hole to smear Catholicism again.
In the link that you provided on your later post, i found the following:
http://www.infovassula.ch/tligchurchposition.htm
3)      Finally, it remains inappropriate for Catholics to take part in prayer groups established by Mrs Rydén. Concerning the question of ecumenical meetings, the faithful are to follow the norms of the Ecumenical Directory, of the Code of Canon Law (canons: 215; 223 §2 and 383 §3) and of Diocesan Ordinaries.
It is hardly “Bishop’s approval” when the prefect of the CFD, Cardinal Levada, is stating this, as it has much more authority than the quotes you provided.
There has simply been a lot of confusion among the Catholic hierarchy about this woman.

Paisius
Quote from: danman916 on September 21, 2010, 03:28:03 PM
So these are in force, yet Father Ambrose says that Catholic Bishops approve of her locutions and writings?
I will be interested to see whether or not Father Ambrose can demonstrate any proof for his claim.
There are a lot of bishops in the Catholic Church; it’s inevitable that you’re going to find one approving wacky things from time to time. Considering that bishops have approved clown masses I’m not sure why you find the idea that a couple of them approved of Vassula Ryden so hard to believe.

http://www.orthodoxchristianity.net/forum/index.php/topic,5923.225/wap2.html
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stanley123
Quote from: filipinopilgrim on September 21, 2010, 01:55:36 AM
Vassula Ryden, a visionary known for her “private revelations” that promote indifferentism, and who continues to be enthusiastically supported by many Catholic and Orthodox clergy and hierarchs despite occasional warnings from the Vatican (and a few timid ones from the Orthodox Churches), enthusiastically relates in the latest report on her website that as part of her Mission in Romania on May 2010, a Romanian Orthodox priest invited a Roman Catholic priest to concelebrate the Divine Liturgy of Pentecost.
Was this concelebration with an Eastern Orthodox priest or with an Oriental Orthodox priest?

augustin717
How many Orientals are there in Romania? A handful of Armenians.

Orest
Quote from: augustin717 on September 22, 2010, 01:46:55 PM
How many Orientals are there in Romania? A handful of Armenians.
True now there are just a handful of Armenians left in present day Romania, but when Moldovia was part of Turkey the Armenians played an important role in business – importing goods.  Even when Bukovyna was part of the Austrian Empire after 1775.  Suchava was once a significant city before the capital of Bukovyna was moved to Chernivsti by the Austrians.  Both cities had a population of Armenians with their own richly decorated churches and of course schools right up until WW1.

Paisius
Quote from: stanley123 on September 22, 2010, 01:40:55 PM
Was this concelebration with an Eastern Orthodox priest or with an Oriental Orthodox priest?
If the pictures on the blog are of the event then it was an Eastern Orthodox priest.

http://www.orthodoxchristianity.net/forum/index.php/topic,5923.230/wap2.html
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augustin717
Up to 1948 about 50 thousand Armenians lived in Romania, now about 2 or 3 thousand, IIRC, are left.

filipinopilgrim
Quote from: danman916 on September 22, 2010, 09:10:24 AM
Quote from: filipinopilgrim on September 21, 2010, 09:04:31 PM
The fact that so many top Catholic theologians and lay leaders are easily fooled by paranormal phenomena that would have been denounced out of hand by any Catholic priest prior to Vatican II, and by anyone really familiar with Catholic ascetical and mystical theology, just goes to show how so many Catholics are ignorant of their own tradition. Oh, Puleez. This is nothing more than polemics again.
I’m Catholic myself, and a blogger as well. You don’t do our faith any favors by pretending that everything is perfect. It seems to me that you’ve been completely unaware of all the major issues in our Church regarding dissent against the Magisterium of the Popes.

Alveus Lacuna
Quote from: Irish Hermit on September 21, 2010, 04:36:08 AM
Whether or not the Patriarch of Alexandria communed Catholics, I do not know.  There are no photos of this in the article you reference although she has plenty of photos of the Alexandria visit and the Patriarch.

Here is the video of His Beatitude communing Roman Catholics:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=fGq0FF_RWZw

It’s about at about the two-minute mark.

Carl Kraeff (Second Chance)
I did not see anyone with a big label on him, proclaiming him to be a Roman Catholic. Your conclusion is just a guess.

Alveus Lacuna
I know, you really want to deny it, don’t you? If you actually read through the other thread and did a bit of searching on this, you would see that a group of Roman Catholic pilgrims accompanied Ryden to the cathedral with the intention of doing this. She specifically promotes the disobedience of restrictions on communion between ancient churches. It’s one of her big things. It’s unlikely that His Beatitude knew anything about it, but he must have known what he was doing with the Roman Catholic priest. Even if that is under suspicion, assuming that some Orthodox priests in Alexandria dress that way, or that it might have been a pilgrim, the Roman Catholic monk after him should quell any doubts in your mind. Western rite Orthodox monks are very rare indeed, and any of the ones I have seen do not dress like that.
So suspend the obvious if you must. I’m not the Pope of Alexandria, and I honestly don’t presume to judge his intentions. He is accountable before God, not me.

http://www.orthodoxchristianity.net/forum/index.php/topic,5923.235/wap2.html
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Lenexa
http://news-nftu.blogspot.com/2010/09/shock-romanian-orthodox-and-roman.html

I never cease to be shocked by all of this. I keep wondering what will happen next.
Why are there not more bishops who stand up and say that this is wrong and bishops guilty of heresy should be deposed.
It was heartening to see the rally that took place in neighboring Moldova.
http://news-nftu.blogspot.com/2010/09/photos-moldova-against-ecumenism.html

Michał Kalina
No sources. I don’t believe it at all.

Fr. Anastasios
Interesting–I think I have spoken with that priest several times. He’s on my FB friends list.
I’m not surprised that there was a concelebrated Orthodox-Roman Catholic liturgy; I was present at one such myself in 1999 (naturally, the Orthodox priest was acting in disobedience).  People do all sorts of crazy things in this modern age of relativism. Nothing shocks me anymore.

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Alveus Lacuna
Quote from: Fr. Anastasios on September 23, 2010, 11:46:49 PM
I’m not surprised that there was a concelebrated Orthodox-Roman Catholic liturgy; I was present at one such myself in 1999 (naturally, the Orthodox priest was acting in disobedience).  People do all sorts of crazy things in this modern age of relativism. Nothing shocks me anymore.
Was this when you were a Byzantine Catholic? If so, what jurisdiction was the Orthodox priest from?

Fr. Anastasios
Yes, I was a Byzantine Catholic, but I am not going to say anything identifying about the Orthodox priest because that was 11 years ago.

Irish Hermit
“Not only was Rev. Fr. Daniel Crecan inspired to ask Vassula to speak to his congregation after the Divine Liturgy on the great feast of Pentecost Sunday, but he also invited us all to partake in the Eucharist. What a wonderful gift we were given by the Holy Spirit!
Fr. Daniel, the parish priest of this church shares his perspective on the events of this wonderful day:
“On the day of Pentecost was the feast day for our church and many people came to attend the Holy Liturgy. That day in our community we received many special guests who came from many parts of the world: one Greek born in Egypt, one from Switzerland, and one from the Philippines. That was wonderful and very special for us because we had never before had so many nationalities in our church. It does not matter if our Orthodox community is small, but it is our joy to minister together with believers from other countries and different churches. The Swiss man is my good friend and brother in Christ, a Roman-Catholic priest. On that special day drawn by the Spirit we shared together the same Holy Eucharist, the Holy Body and Blood of Christ. It was great, wonderful, divine … .just like the teachings of our Saviour Christ, “MAY THEY ALL BE ONE!” Communion in the Eucharist is the sign of unity in the Holy Spirit. It was definitely a divine sign given by the Holy Spirit, of full communion in the love of Jesus Christ. But this is not all….we had a lot of people who came to receive the Holy Eucharist, singing, praying together and giving glory to our God. The presence of many Greek-Catholics sharing communion with us in the same church and sharing the Liturgy was indeed another sign of the presence of the Holy Spirit in the middle of our community. No words can ever tell the joy of what it is like to have full communion in truth, in unity with the Holy Spirit.”
Vassula Ryden
That day, Fr. Daniel gave the Eucharist to Roman Catholics, to Vassula & Greek Catholics Dan, his family, and friends.

These people are NOT being given communion at the Liturgy.  Fr Daniel is half undressed and not wearing any Phelonion.  What is really happening here?
To see more pictures http://tlig.org/en/news/2010-09-16/2129/

stashko
Didn’t the Greek Orthodox church that excommunicated her talk to other Orthodox Churches and give them a HEADS UP, and tell them about her… It’s confusing this mess… I could understand Catholics loving and chasing after these type of visionaries. They can’t seem to get enough of them… But orthodoxy should know better especially the Orthodox Clergy… God help us when our Clergy start Falling for this and leading the Orthodox Faithful astray…

If this is the Way canonical Orthodoxy is coming too God Help Us. The Breakaway Orthodox Groups are starting to look more legitimate in my eyes.

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Salpy
I really do wish that an Orthodox source–EO or OO–would publish and circulate some sort of pamphlet or booklet to educate and warn people about her.  So far all we have are various documents that one can print out from the internet.  It’s not quite as effective. 
Quote
I could understand Catholics loving and chasing after these types of visionaries, they can’t seem to get enough of them….
One of her greatest critics has been Pope Benedict.
Quote
But orthodoxy Should Know better especially the Orthodox Clergy… God help us when our Clergy start Falling for this and leading the Orthodox Faithful astray….
As I’ve said, her supporters can be deceptive and have actually been known to lie about clergy supporting her and her messages when no such thing has really happened.  I also think some clergy have been tricked into giving the appearance of supporting her when they didn’t really know who she was.  I guess more needs to be done to educate not only lay persons about her, but also clergy.

stashko
Quote from: Salpy on September 24, 2010, 02:23:50 AM
Quote from: stashko on September 24, 2010, 02:01:11 AM
Didn’t the Greek Orthodox church that excommunicated her talk to other Orthodox Churches and give them a HEADS UP, and tell them about her…
It’s confusing this mess…
I really do wish that an Orthodox source–EO or OO–would publish and circulate some sort of pamphlet or booklet to educate and warn people about her.  So far all we have are various documents that one can print out from the internet. It’s not quite as effective.  
Quote
I could understand Catholics loving and chasing after these types of visionaries, they can’t seem to get enough of them….
One of her greatest critics has been Pope Benedict.
Quote
But orthodoxy Should Know better especially the Orthodox Clergy….God help us when our Clergy start Falling for this and leading the Orthodox Faithful astray….
As I’ve said, her supporters can be deceptive and have actually been known to lie about clergy supporting her and her messages when no such thing has really happened.  I also think some clergy have been tricked into giving the appearance of supporting her when they didn’t really know who she was.  I guess more needs to be done to educate not only lay persons about her, but also clergy.
Maybe the Pope Did or Didn’t By Speaking Loud enough for His Faithful to Hear… Catholics do chase after these weird things… Just here in Chicago At the Fullerton expressway exit, under the bridge someone noticed a smudge that he or she interpreted as the Image of the Virgin Mary… Created such a Traffic Jam due to the Catholic faithful going there to venerate the smudge…That went on for quite a long time…

Michał Kalina
Quote from: Alveus Lacuna on September 23, 2010, 10:59:05 PM
Quote from: Michał Kalina on September 23, 2010, 07:32:20 PM
No sources. I don’t believe it at all.
What don’t you believe?
I don’t believe it is a legitimate source of information.

PeterTheAleut
And we don’t do the same thing?

Irish Hermit
I noticed that Ryden seems to consider herself (above) not as an Orthodox Christian but as a Roman Catholic.  This is from her official website.

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Lenexa.
Healthy skepticism is good but simply dismissing a news report which is linked to its source:
http://tlig.org/en/news/2010-09-16/2129/ which is a Vassula Ryden blog.
Scroll down to the section regarding this incident titled:
Sunday, May 23 Pentecost Sunday Divine Liturgy in Bocsa Mantana Parish
Being generally dismissive is not healthy but is simply a sign of refusing to think critically about a troubling or complex issue. But of course some people prefer the cave.
Quote from: stashko on September 24, 2010, 02:13:15 AM
If this is the Way canonical Orthodoxy is coming too God Help Us . The Breakaway Orthodox Groups are starting to look more legitimate in my eyes…
That is why it so hard to be a thoughtful and informed Orthodox Christian within any of the Patriarchates now. Six years ago I was of the mind that the progressive Ecumenism was going down and that we would finally see a return to Tradition and to Orthodoxy as the Unique True Faith. Now however, I see that in spite of a rise of concern for ecumenism as heresy and devotion to Tradition on the part of many lay people and some clergy that most “canonical” bishops either do not care and will never try to prosecute the openly Ecumenist clergy in their ranks. When the “canonical” bishops are simply watching as millions of the faithful follow the heresy of Ecumenism and fall into Hell than I can’t help but be shaken. I know of only a small minority of truly great bishops and monks within “canonical” Orthodox jurisdictions and I know that throughout most of the history of the Church only a minority of bishops have been great defenders of the faith but in these terrible times when we are faced with the greatest of heresies, Ecumenism, as it combines so many other heresies, you cannot simply stand-by and watch from a neutral standpoint. All bishops who are truly Orthodox must unite to prosecute the Ecumenists who are using our parishes and dioceses to lead as many people as they can into Hell.
When I feel this way how can I not sympathize with those who have broken away for the sake of the purity of our Orthodox faith. Those who’ve sown discord and caused the schisms were and are the heretics in the bosom of the Church.

peccatorum
“And he said unto them, Take heed what ye hear: with what measure ye mete, it shall be measured to you: and unto you that hear shall more be given.” St Mark Gospel, 4:24
Who are YOU to say who’s going to heaven or hell? Don’t you know that the judgement belongs to God, all praises to Him?

Fr. Anastasios
Quote from: Irish Hermit on September 24, 2010, 01:43:30 AM
These people are NOT being given communion at the Liturgy.  Fr Daniel is half undressed and not wearing any Phelonion.  What is really happening here?
To see more pictures http://tlig.org/en/news/2010-09-16/2129/

It’s pretty obvious there was a liturgy and they were communed from those pictures. Fr Daniel appears to have taken off his phelonion to give out communion for some reason.  Irrespective of why he would take off his phelonion, he is clearly shown concelebrating with a Roman Catholic priest, holding up Ryden’s book in his Church, and then letting her give a talk. I hope corrective measures are taken to help Fr Daniel realize his mistake.

Michał Kalina
How do you know he is Romanian Orthodox Fr. Daniel and not Romanian Catholic Fr. Peter? How do you know it it a Parish under Romanian Patriarchate, not a separate one group? Because Ryden wrote so?
To confirm the report there should be two autonomous relations. Ryden could have written anything on her blog and none from it have to be true.

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Irish Hermit
Quote from: Michał Kalina on September 24, 2010, 11:57:45 AM
How do you know he is Romanian Orthodox Fr. Daniel and not Romanian Catholic Fr. Peter? How do you know it a Parish under Romanian Patriarchate, not a separate one group? Because Ryden wrote so?
To confirm the report there should be two autonomous relations. Ryden could have written anything on her blog and none from it have to be true.
Fr Daniel Crecan is on Facebook, if anybody would like to ask him questions…
http://www.facebook.com/REV.DR.DanielCrecan

Fr. Anastasios
I sent him a message last night, but he hasn’t responded yet. I’ve talked to him a few times in the past.

stashko
Quote from: stashko on September 24, 2010, 02:01:11 AM
And we don’t do the same thing?
No we don’t. If A Holy Ikona starts to weep even in a Private residence It’s taken to the church ,so a Bishop can examine it and do a exorcism on it to make sure its not of the devil….

SubdeaconSL
I think a bishop who performed an exoticism on an icon would probably be deposed. An exorcism, on the other hand, probably wouldn’t be a problem.  😉

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PeterTheAleut
Is this what your church does?

stashko
I’m not talking about the Ikonas that are in churches; example if I had a icona at home that started to weep, I would take it to church and have a Bishop examine thoroughly. I’m sure he wouldn’t just accept it as a authentic miracle with out doing a exorcism on it… Because all iconas aren’t purchased through a church so they may not all be blessed…

stanley123
Quote from: Lenexa on September 24, 2010, 10:20:44 AM
When the “canonical” bishops are simply watching as millions of the faithful follow the heresy of Ecumenism and fall into Hell than I can’t help but be shaken.

Why should millions of these faithful people fall into Hell, if it is not their fault, but they are being led by your Orthodox bishops and priests? Is it official that they will all be falling into Hell? This seems to be pretty strong to me to send millions of faithful Orthodox Christian people to everlasting fire and damnation in Hell because they are listening to their Orthodox bishops on this issue?

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augustin717
If those millions only read their betters on the internet, how easily they would avoid ending up in hell

Lenexa
Perhaps making arguments using hyperbole is not as well understood as I thought it would be.
No one who really cares about the salvation of his brothers and sisters can simply stand by and let them be led astray. We all have the ability to help and influence people for better or worse.
Perhaps I should’ve said bishops should be helping lead millions to heaven and not just stand-by and hope they find the way on their own.

peccatorum
Don’t know… At least in Antiochian Patriarcate here in Rio de Janeiro it’s very usual to see Orthodox priests giving communion to Roman Catholics.
Let me tell you all a story: Here in Rio, there is a church called “Paróquia Ortodoxa de Santo Expedito”. He is the saint of urgent causes, and is not recognized by the Holy Catholic Church. But every Sunday it is full (usually, if you don’t arrive early, you’ll be almost out of the church), and the people are generally Catholics, but the priest (Padre Geraldo) gives eucharist to everybody there. Usually, they do not demand a chrism.
On the other hand, Catholics welcome Orthodox on their parishes, and also give them communion.
Of course both Catholics and Orthodox teach the believers to do not do so unless if leads them into mortal sin or in danger of death, but if you get there by your own legs, they do not let you outside.
Salpy
Quote from: Irish Hermit on September 24, 2010, 01:43:30 AM
I noticed that Ryden seems to consider herself (above) not as an Orthodox Christian but as a Roman Catholic.  This is from her official website.
Father, I don’t think the woman in that picture is Vassula.  I think this is Vassula (the blonde woman in black):

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Irish Hermit
Quote from: stashko on September 24, 2010, 02:01:11 AM
Is this what your church does?
The practice of the Russian and Serbian Churches too.

PeterTheAleut
Quote from: stashko on September 24, 2010, 02:01:11 AM
The practice of the Russian and Serbian Churches too.
You do realize I’m challenging stashko’s stupid stereotypes?

Irish Hermit:
Quote from: stashko on September 24, 2010, 02:01:11 AM
You do realize I’m challenging stashko’s stupid stereotypes?
I’ve witnessed some of what Stashko speaks of… a few years back somebody noticed that the fence post on a Sydney beach resembled the profile of the Holy Virgin.  Before you could say jiggery popery there were Catholics there by the hundreds and thousands, kneeling in the sand and saying the rosary, kissing the fence post….
I don’t know whatever became of the post or how the story ended…

WetCatechumen
Quote from: Irish Hermit on September 24, 2010, 01:43:30 AM
These people are NOT being given communion at the Liturgy.  Fr Daniel is half undressed and not wearing any Phelonion.  What is really happening here?

To see more pictures http://tlig.org/en/news/2010-09-16/2129/

It’s pretty obvious there was a liturgy and they were communed from those pictures. Fr Daniel appears to have taken off his phelonion to give out communion for some reason.  Irrespective of why he would take off his phelonion, he is clearly shown concelebrating with a Roman Catholic priest, holding up Ryden’s book in his Church, and then letting her give a talk. I hope corrective measures are taken to help Fr Daniel realize his mistake.
Father Anastasios, Seeing as this priest is not vested, it doesn’t look like he’s concelebrating. While it’s certainly inappropriate for him to be up at the altar, because it gives that impression, my guess for now is that there was no concelebration. Simply from the photographic evidence. Fr. Daniel would probably be a better person to ask.
Furthermore, Fr. Daniel does not mention Fr. Rolf concelebrating. Her website does, however, mention this:
“On Monday morning, Fr. Rolf celebrated Holy Mass in the Foundation’s beautiful chapel while Fr. Daniel celebrated the Divine Liturgy for the Feast of the Holy Trinity in his church.”
So the next day, they did not concelebrate, but celebrated Eucharist at their own churches. This of course doesn’t shed much more light on what happened on Sunday.
Vassula Ryden asserted initially that they concelebrated. I think she must have been confused about what the term means.
Of course, there is always the possibility that Fr. Rolf has gone off the deep end and celebrated Mass in an alb and stole, without a chasuble.

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Fr. Anastasios
Thanks for your comments, WetCatechumen. I’ve actually been at a Roman Catholic Mass where a priest “went off the deep end” and served a liturgy without a chasuble… we’ve seen Fr. Daniel took off his phelonion to give out communion… then the fact that they are letting a total heretic like Ryden do *anything* in their churches… a lot of inconsistency in all of this. I did ask Fr. Daniel what the story is, but he has not gotten back to me yet.

ICXCNIKA
Having worked in a Roman Parish for a decade I can say that it is quite common to concelebrate in just an alb and stole (at least in the parishes that I was familiar with), as they are all that are required.

WetCatechumen
Quote from: ICXCNIKA on September 26, 2010, 06:14:09 PM
Having worked in a Roman Parish for a decade I can say that it is quite common to celebrate in just an alb and stole, as they are all that are required.
That is not true. A chasuble is required unless there is a large number of celebrants. I have been to ordinations, and only about half of the priests wear chasubles. However, every other Mass I’ve been to, the priest has worn a chasuble, with the exception of a certain religious parish I attend which is noted for its many abuses. The priests there will sometimes wear a stole over their religious habit, which is an abuse.
A stolen quote from Redemptionis Sacramentum:
123. “The vestment proper to the Priest celebrant at Mass, and in other sacred actions directly connected with Mass unless otherwise indicated, is the chasuble, worn over the alb and stole”.213 Likewise the Priest, in putting on the chasuble according to the rubrics, is not to omit the stole. All Ordinaries should be vigilant in order that all usage to the contrary be eradicated.
124. A faculty is given in the Roman Missal for the Priest concelebrants at Mass other than the principal concelebrant (who should always put on a chasuble of the prescribed color), for a just reason such as a large number of concelebrants or a lack of vestments, to omit “the chasuble, using the stole over the alb”.214 Where a need of this kind can be foreseen, however, provision should be made for it insofar as possible. Out of necessity the concelebrants other than the principal celebrant may even put on white chasubles. For the rest, the norms of the liturgical books are to be observed.
It’s an abuse. Furthermore, priests who are at Mass but do not concelebrate will sometimes dress in this fashion licitly.

WetCatechumen
Quote from: Fr. Anastasios on September 26, 2010, 05:51:20 PM
Thanks for your comments, WetCatechumen. I’ve actually been at a Roman Catholic Mass where a priest “went off the deep end” and served a liturgy without a chasuble… we’ve seen Fr. Daniel took off his phelonion to give out communion…then the fact that they are letting a total heretic like Ryden do *anything* in their churches… a lot of inconsistency in all of this.
I did ask Fr. Daniel what the story is, but he has not gotten back to me yet.
Fr Anastasios
I’ve been to those too, sadly. As you can see in my post above, it is an abuse. A parish run by Dominicans attached to my University often has daily mass where the priest will celebrate with only a stole over his habit. They do wear chasubles on Sunday, but they wear their stoles over their chasubles.
Yes, I agree that there is a lot of inconsistency. However, it is likely that Ryden doesn’t know the difference between a priest standing near the altar while another priest celebrates and an actual concelebration. It would still be scandalous, however, for Fr. Daniel to allow Fr. Rolf behind the iconostasis. I choose to believe this until I see evidence to the contrary.

ICXCNIKA
An abuse in a Roman parish???! Of course I could have been confused by the jarring sounds of the Rock and Roll mass, the 20 girl altar servers etc.

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WetCatechumen
Quote from: ICXCNIKA on September 26, 2010, 06:41:56 PM
An abuse in a Roman parish???! Of course I could have been confused by the jarring sounds of the Rock and Roll mass, The 20 girl altar servers etc.

I often make fun of the abuses that happen in the Catholic Church, but due to my insecurities concerning the fact that your liturgy is in order and ours is not, I feel as if you are being unnecessarily sarcastic and I am a little bit offended.
Of course, please realize that these feeling may be completely unjustified on my part, and I should not have emotionally reacted that way. I only wanted you to know how I feel. However, it does not mean that it wasn’t okay for you to say what you did. I just didn’t like it, and I definitely shouldn’t.
Rock and Roll and altars girls are the least of my worries, honestly, when it comes to liturgical abuses. It shows you what a sad state we are in. Please pray for us.

stanley123
Quote from: ICXCNIKA on September 26, 2010, 06:41:56 PM
An abuse in a Roman parish???! Of course I could have been confused by the jarring sounds of the Rock and Roll mass, The 20 girl altar servers etc.
Yes. I wholeheartedly agree. I don’t know what happened to the RCC after Vatican II.

stanley123
Quote from: WetCatechumen on September 26, 2010, 07:04:45 PM
Quote from: ICXCNIKA on September 26, 2010, 06:41:56 PM
An abuse in a Roman parish???! Of course I could have been confused by the jarring sounds of the Rock and Roll mass, The 20 girl altar servers etc.
I often make fun of the abuses that happen in the Catholic Church, but due to my insecurities concerning the fact that your liturgy is in order and ours is not, I feel as if you are being unnecessarily sarcastic and I am a little bit offended.
I think it is a legitimate concern of the Orthodox, especially when Catholics are talking about reunion. Why is it not fair for faithful Orthodox Christians to ask what they are supposed to be uniting with? And are they supposed to just accept the Catholic liturgy with its dancing girls, its puppet Masses, its rock and roll music, etc.

WetCatechumen
It’s a wholly legitimate concern. I encourage criticism of the abuse from our Orthodox brethren.

stashko
My cure is sever all dialogue with Rome, let Rome go its own way, whatever that is… Holy Orthodoxy should concentrate converting the whole world instead… These talks with Rome lead no where. Rome loves its power to much to change… As Christ says cut the Defective Member off…

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ICXCNIKA
It is not my intention to offend you and your fellow co-religionists. I was only trying to put into words the difficult circumstances that I had to endure. You are correct that these are not the worst of offenses. That in of itself is a problem. I could give worse examples I have been privy to but I would rather not go down that road. Forgive me if I offended you. I will pray for you. Please pray for me.

WetCatechumen
No worries. Again, I wouldn’t have these insecurities if my Church didn’t do such a miserable job with its Liturgy some time.
And yes, I have seen some bad ones, and heard of much worse.

peccatorum
Well, altar girls are a necessity in the most humble parishes here in Brazil, since the guys only want to party at “samba” and “baile funk”, to have easy, sheep sex. That’s why there are few new priests in the Roman Catholic Church and almost everyone at my age in the orthodox parishes I knew are married and wish to be priests. That’s terrible; WE ARE BACK TO THE ’70 HERE!!!!!!!

elijahmaria
This is a raunchy comment. 
Sometimes it is better to ask whether or not it is prudent.
There are still ladies in the world…in case you don’t get out much.

Fabio Leite
I think you meant *cheap*, not “sheep”, Peccatorum.

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elijahmaria
Well the last laugh is on ME!!…I should have seen that and did not!
Sorry ’bout that!!…and thanks for making it all clear Fabio!
John Larocque
Quote from: Paisius on September 22, 2010, 11:43:44 AM

There are a lot of bishops in the Catholic Church; it’s inevitable that you’re going to find one approving wacky things from time to time. Considering that bishops have approved clown masses I’m not sure why you find the idea that a couple of them approved of Vassula Ryden so hard to believe.
I’ve seen this phrase mentioned a few times, it’s almost become a cliché. And yet, sometimes one needs to be reminded of events such as this one: http://www.sanctepater.com/2010/01/cardinal-schonborns-mass.html

The “celebrant” is Cardinal Schoenborn. The mass is essentially a rock mass with balloons (!) and made the rounds at a couple of Catholic blogs. The video is well worth sitting through.
Schoenborn has stepped into it again regarding Medjugorje, sanctioning and welcoming their visionaries during “apparition time” at his Vienna cathedral, even though the local bishop of Mostar has forbidden any such activity in his diocese within the local churches of Bosnia. “This isn’t collegial” is a phrase that’s showing up on a few blogs, but there’s no reasoning that will satisfy supporters of suspect apparitions. Te Deum, Patrick Madrid’s blog and Rorate Caeli have already sunk their teeth into the cardinal’s latest incident.

elijahmaria
However sensational, it is always worth noting that as with much of Orthodox “critique” of Catholics and the Catholic Church… the sensational is presented as normative, while ignoring that boring majority of devout Catholics attending spiritually nourishing liturgies.
Paisius
The problem is the “sensational” is but a symptom of a much deeper and more pervasive illness.

elijahmaria
Can you be more specific please.

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stanley123
Quote from: John Larocque on September 27, 2010, 07:18:20 PM
The mass is essentially a rock mass with balloons (!)

There are a whole lot of Catholic Masses like that. For example, here is a Mass celebrated by Roman Catholic bishop Remi de Roo: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=rh_nqtp3VrU

Here is Stephen Colbert doing a liturgical dance routine: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=oASYa-Wkroc

stashko
It’s so funny…Ha, Ha, Ha. Is this Guy Catholic and he happened to wittiness a liturgical dance and now is making fun of it?
John Larocque
They had liturgical dancing at a parish in London, Ontario when I was younger. We walked out and didn’t bother to stay until the end. Any parish and any service that has liturgical dancing is not worth attending. The priest once gave a verbal dressing down of parishioners who put less and less into the collection plate (as a reaction to liturgical inanities or what not). Hey, if it hits them in the wallet, they’ll notice.
Remi de Roo was one of the most liberal Canadian bishops. Back then, you would hear a lot about social justice, nuclear war (i.e. White House is bad), poverty – although they were often very quiet if those social justice concerns included abortion. They used to beat the drums on those issues, with a chorus of supporters on newspapers like “Catholic New Times”. Some of the same prelates presided over the liturgical destruction that went on in their dioceses and a few of them covered up abuse as well, shuffling priests around from parish to parish. I recall that Thomas Gumbleton of Detroit was the essentially the American counterpart to de Roo. There was a newspaper debate between de Roo and future Catholic convert Conrad Black where he took the bishop to task over their support for socialism.

John Larocque
A lawyer in the local paper made an astounding claim. He represented some female victims in the abuse scandal, and cited statements that the accused priest made apparently in the 1970s, to wit, that “altar girls” were coming to the Church, and that it was the new, hip modern thing. But the real motivation (according to the lawyer) was that altar girls were the chief vehicle for heterosexually inclined priests to be in proximity with victims of the opposite sex. This is possibly the creepiest thing I have ever heard regarding the introduction of the practice. Altar girls finally got Vatican approval by the Venerable John Paul II. Most of the arguments that I’ve come across defending the Vatican were along the lines that if they cracked down on liturgical or doctrinal abuses, entire wings of the church would fall into schism. So, rather than watching their church go into schism, they’d wait for the Vatican II fossils to retire. The JP II episcopal appointees were a mixed bag – Roger Mahony for example (who was key in getting some Ratzinger books to the American market).

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elijahmaria
If you were building your retirement package from revenue gleaned from the Catholic Church, would you not try to exaggerate the situation to your own and your client’s advantage?
Are you really going to tell me that attorneys in the United States are more honest and moral than the vast majority of Catholic priests? I come from a family of attorneys and priests so be careful how you answer this… Mary

John Larocque
I don’t think the lawyer is any more honest than the rest of them, but the notion that introducing altar girls was guided by predatory motivations, as opposed to the fashionably modernist, was something that I found believable.

elijahmaria
Then you have my sympathies John, because you can only be part of the problem rather than its solution.
There are far too many devout Catholic priests and laypeople who are not going to fold or crumble or Dox, for it to be in your best interest to join those who seek more to destroy the Church than they do to aid the victims.
Some day when your films of odd masses are not just 20, 30,40 and 50 years old but they will be 100 years old and more, then the stinger will be out of your bee… and most of the Orthodox will have their wish: “Better the Turban than the Tiara”
Irish Hermit:
Quote from: John Larocque on September 28, 2010, 09:05:27 AM
I first met altar girls at the funeral of an old friend’s father, a school teacher, and that was back in the days when the New Zealand Church was defying the Vatican by having them (girls, not funerals)
We had 4 beautiful tall teenage girls whose Franciscan type garb could not have been better designed to show them off as tempting morsels.  Among the men at the after cemetery bunfight the talk was all about the nubile girls on the altar and I would be pretty sure that some lapsed Catholics in that parish started attending Mass again.

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ialmisry
Quote from: John Larocque on September 27, 2010, 07:18:20 PM
Quote from: Paisius on September 22, 2010, 11:43:44 AM
There are a lot of bishops in the Catholic Church; it’s inevitable that you’re going to find one approving wacky things from time to time. Considering that bishops have approved clown masses I’m not sure why you find the idea that a couple of them approved of Vassula Ryden so hard to believe. I’ve seen this phrase mentioned a few times, it’s almost become a cliché. And yet, sometimes one needs to be reminded of events such as this one: http://www.sanctepater.com/2010/01/cardinal-schonborns-mass.html

The “celebrant” is Cardinal Schoenborn. The mass is essentially a rock mass with balloons (!), and made the rounds at a couple of Catholic blogs. The video is well worth sitting through. Schoenborn has stepped into it again regarding Medjugorje, sanctioning and welcoming their visionaries during “apparition time” at his Vienna cathedral, even though the local bishop of Mostar has forbidden any such activity in his diocese within the local churches of Bosnia. “This isn’t collegial” is a phrase that’s showing up on a few blogs,  but there’s no reasoning that will satisfy supporters of suspect apparitions. Te Deum, Patrick Madrid’s blog and Rorate Caeli have already sunk their teeth into the cardinal’s latest incident.
To those who do not speak German, the sign is telling the people “Please write a prayer to God on the card and attach it to the balloon.” It might have made more sense (relatively speaking) if it was an outdoor mass. Reminds me of the Buddhist prayer wheels.

peccatorum
Dude, I’ve seen Carlton Banks performing a dance like that in the Fresh Prince!
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ROEytcUmXvQ&feature=related

Serious, that’s why there is a growing movement in Catholic Church called Missa Tridentina (Tridentine mass), to fight these abuses. As I said before, I am not against the guitar masses, but when we are before God (all praises to Him), we must do so in heart contrition, and a priest cannot do whatever he wants, with the Gospel being more important than the ritual as an excuse, because if he turns the mass into a show, the people are not there for God, but for entertainment.

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augustin717
Well, he appealed against the decision of the diocesan bishop to the metropolitan: http://www.antena3.ro/romania/preot-ortodox-dat-afara-din-cauza-unor-poze-postate-pe-facebook-112759.html

http://www.romanialibera.ro/actualitate/transilvania/pedeapsa-medievala-in-episcopia-din-caransebes-205050.html

The parish/village stands by the priest; apparently they claim there was no concelebration-having locked the church, forbidding the new priest sent by the bishop to go in and hold any service.
Had he concelebrated with the anti-Chalcedonians he would have suffered the same consequences according to the statues of the Romanian Church.

ialmisry
If true, I apologise bowed down before him, and pray that he be exonerated and reinstated.  I’d raise a question about the bishop laicizing an innocent man.

http://www.orthodoxchristianity.net/forum/index.php/topic,5923.315/wap2.html
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augustin717
Reportedly, they chased away the dean cursing at him, accusing him of all sorts of stuff. […]
Since you read Romanian here are the directives regarding concelebration and communing with other Christian churches:
“As for the liturgical and sacramental behaviour of the hierarchs, priests, deacons, monks, nuns and laymen of the Romanian Orthodox Church towards other denominations, on the basis of the Holy Canons, the Holy Synod has decided that it is not permitted to any hierarch, priest, deacon, monk, nun or layman of the Romanian Orthodox Church to receive the eucharistic communion in any other Christian church. Likewise, it is not permitted to any Orthodox clergyman to concelebrate the Mysteries or the “Hierourgies” with clergy of any other denominations.
Those not following this decision lose communion with the Orthodox Church and, as a consequence, will suffer the canonical sanctions corresponding to their Church status deposing from the clerical order, in the case of clergymen and banning from the Communion in the case of the lay faithful.”

ialmisry
Not 100% on point with the miaphysites, but we don’t even concelebrate yet in Syria. I wouldn’t expect it in Romania.

orthonorm
But hey David sang and danced naked, so who are we to judge?

Alveus Lacuna
Did he do it in the temple during the liturgy?

LBK
He did it around the Ark of the Covenant

http://www.orthodoxchristianity.net/forum/index.php/topic,5923.320/wap2.html
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Alveus Lacuna
Can I get the scripture reference on this, please? I’m not doubting it’s there, I’ve just never read it for myself, as my Old Testament studies are a bit lacking.

TheodoraElizabeth3
In the Orthodox Study Bible, 2 Kingdoms (2nd Samuel) chapter 6, especially verse 16, but read the whole chapter.

Salpy
I think Vassula is claiming another endorsement, but I don’t know if it is real.  She’s claiming that an Orthodox archbishop hosted her at his residence and prayed with her at his church.
Evidently she was in Uganda in November.  An article was just published about her visit, reporting an interview she gave.  The article reads in part:
Prior to her Kampala visit, Vassula was disowned by both the Catholic and Orthodox Christian leaders and, her crusade was attended by a scanty congregation.
But in an interview with Sunday Vision, Vassula denied any ill-motives against the Church and re-affirmed the purity of her prophetic ministry.
“There is nothing evil in what I preach. Even Cardinal Ratzinger, before he became Pope, investigated my writings for over two years but he never condemned me.”
“I have also never been excommunicated from the Orthodox Church where I belong. I am just delivering God’s message of peace, unity, love, holiness and practical charity,” Vassula said. “People who attend my crusades come from all churches. I am not starting a church. I am simply preaching to Christians, to live in unity in diversity.” “There are some people, who are opposed to my message of love, peace and unity, who write bad things about me. It is such people who have made some religious leaders look at me with suspicion.” “You know anything that comes from God has to be persecuted while that, which comes from Satan, is cherished. Even the prophets of God, Jesus and his followers were persecuted,” she added.
Asked why she was disowned by the local Orthodox Church leaders prior to her visit, Vassula expressed feelings of disbelief and said: “I don’t think that is true. The Orthodox Archbishop Jonah Lwanga hosted me at his residence and I had tea with him. Later we went to the Church and had prayers with him. Even here at the crusade, we have been with some Orthodox priests.”
http://www.sundayvision.co.ug/detail.php?mainNewsCategoryId=7&newsCategoryId=478&newsId=745848

Of course she is being disingenuous when she says she has never been excommunicated from the Orthodox Church.  She knows she has been excommunicated.
I’m wondering, though, about what happened (or didn’t happen) with Archbishop Jonah.  She and her followers have been known to be deceptive about endorsements from clergy.  Does anyone know anything about this? 

davidtlig
Vassula is on good terms with many Orthodox hierarchy.  The regular pilgrimages she organises always include many Orthodox clergy.  At the last pilgrimage in 2009, the Abbot of Patmos, Archmandrite Antipas visited the 800 strong pilgrimage group.  A photo of him with Vassula during the pilgrimage can be seen at:
http://www.tligpilgrimages.org/greecetwis.html

I think it should be helpful also if I post a link to a detailed report of Vassula’s dealings with the Vatican over the years.  The report includes a photo of Vassula with Cardinal Ratzinger in his office in the Vatican only a few months before he became Pope.  The link is at: http://www.cdf-tlig.org
[davidtlig is a follower of Vassula Ryden –Michael]

Iconodule
Has the Archimandrite been disciplined or censured for this? Or is this like those times when the Moonies “trick” members of the US congress to come to their functions?

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Fr. George
Don’t feed us the propaganda.  She is excommunicated and/or a non-member of the Orthodox Church (EO and OO, as documented well here on the ‘net) and the Roman Catholic Church, so spare us.

Salpy
Quote from: Iconodule on March 05, 2011, 10:23:15 AM
Quote from: davidtlig on March 05, 2011, 05:56:13 AM
Vassula is on good terms with many Orthodox hierarchy.  The regular pilgrimages she organises always include many Orthodox clergy.  At the last pilgrimage in 2009, the Abbot of Patmos, Archmandrite Antipas visited the 800 strong pilgrimage group. A photo of him with Vassula during the pilgrimage can be seen at:
http://www.tligpilgrimages.org/greecetwis.html

Has the Archimandrite been disciplined or censured for this? Or is this like those times when the Moonies “trick” members of the US congress to come to their functions?
It’s probably the latter.  She and her followers will go on these pilgrimages, get Vassula’s picture taken with clergy who will normally greet and talk with any large group of pilgrims, and then claim that these clergy support Vassula.
Really, all Orthodox Churches need to spread this woman’s name and picture to all its clergy, along with a warning not to get their picture taken with her.
David, getting your picture taken with someone is very different from getting their approval.  Pope Benedict has made it very clear in writing, more than once over the years that he does not approve of Vassula.

davidtlig
I realise that not many of the active people on this forum will want to hear anything ‘positive’ about Vassula but I hope there are others who view the postings who may be a little more open.
I wonder if you are aware that the Greek Orthodox Patriarch of Alexandria is very supportive of her. If you don’t believe me, please view the video at: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=IN6L8owknfc

Reading the account of what led up to Vassula’s meeting with Cardinal Ratzinger demonstrates how the granting of a meeting was indeed only possible after a thorough investigation had removed all the Cardinal’s concerns.  Do please read the details (at: http://www.cdf-tlig.org/introduction.html)

LBK
davidtlig, your username gives you away as a supporter of Vassula Ryden. Of course you would post in favorable terms regarding her. Unfortunately, those of us who are old and ugly enough, know better.
From the Orthodox perspective:
Any number of priests, bishops and hierarchs have denounced her pronouncements, and very senioir levels of clergy have proclaimed Ms Ryden to be no longer in good standing in the Orthodox Church (i.e. to be excommunicated). Moreover, her photo-ops have also been discredited, once the clergy she has been photographed become aware of her statements and beliefs which are utterly contrary to Orthodox doctrine and theology.
You might not like to hear this, davidtlig, but it’s the truth.

davidtlig
First of all, I certainly don’t want to give anyone the impression that I am anything other than a strong supporter and promoter of Vassula.  I have contributed to this forum simply because I found the thread on Google and I felt that the contributors probably knew very little about Vassula or her mission.
I am well aware of the persecution that Vassula and any clergy that support her have to undergo.  It is the nature of any true prophecy that it will be strongly persecuted.   Patriarch Theodore of Alexandria (see video above) certainly experienced intense criticism after his welcoming of Vassula and her group and he is no longer able to provide such open and strong public support for her, yet he continues to believe she is an authentic prophet and he met her again in South Africa at Easter last year. Thank you for allowing me to make these postings.

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Irish Hermit
I adore Vassula!
1. She and her locutions and her magic writings had the approval of Catholic bishops at the time when she had abandoned her first husband and was living in a long-term relationship with her lover (now her second husband.)   *Anybody* who can gain the approval of her visions by the Catholic hierarchy as legitimate when she was living in mortal sin has to be special!!  Just shows how wrong we have all been to think that sexual purity is a prerequisite to being a good Christian, and certainly for being chosen by Jesus as His voice in the world.
2.  Most of all, I adore her for the locution from Jesus which she revealed on her Russian tour, that He had revealed that the Patriarch of Moscow would assume control of the united Universal Church, displacing the Pope of Rome.
I vote to canonise her before she dies! 

davidtlig
There can be no better illustration of the venom Vassula has to endure than the posting above.
Fr Rene Laurentin has written the following about her matrimonial position:
“She is divorced and remarried… In fact, her marital status today is perfectly in order. She was married in church to a Protestant (1966) at a time when she was not practicing any religion. After a civil divorce (1980) she was remarried on June 13, 1981. She thought, at the time, that it was a Protestant ceremony according to her husband’s religion, but, in fact, it was a civil marriage. Only a nominal Christian, without contact with her Orthodox Church, she did not even know that her remarriage could be the source of problems. When she presented herself to her church to regularize her marriage, the first priest to whom she spoke could not even seem to feel that there was a problem since it was a mixed marriage. But she insisted, in order to be truly in accord with Orthodox legislation. It was then that she was referred to the priest in charge of marriage problems, and it was he who took care of the matter following the ‘law of economy’ that deals with broken marriages in her church.
“The marriage was celebrated on October 13, 1990, in the Greek Orthodox Church of Lausanne. Thus, according to church law her situation presents no problems.”

Irish Hermit
Quote from: davidtlig on March 06, 2011, 02:20:07 PM
There can be no better illustration of the venom Vassula has to endure than the posting above.
There is a deep core of venom and bitterness within Vassula Ryden.  Does anyone recall her prophecy about the attack on the Twin Towers?  She told the world that it was Jesus punishing the Americans.
Here is the crux of what Jesus said to Vassula: “How can I not breathe on these renegades My Purifying Fire? …every evil built into Towers will collapse into a heap of rubble and be buried in the dust of sin.”
This prophecy was given to Vassula on 11 September 1991 – ten years exactly before the Towers were attacked and collapsed. Actually the whole prophecy is very heavy and is replete with Jesus’ threats of vengeance and destruction. There’s a lot of hatred in her revelations, mixed in with the sweet stuff.
davidtlig
Quote, She told the world that it was Jesus punishing the Americans.
What Vassula actually said regarding the prophetic ‘Twin Towers’ message can be read at:
http://www.tlig.org/en/messages/654/

Readers will find no venom in Vassula’s commentary on the message.
I remain amazed that people can remain indifferent to the ‘coincidence’ of Vassula receiving the above message 10 years to the day before the actual events in New York.
As to the messages showing the Justice, severity yet Mercy of God, they do of course perfectly reflect Holy Scripture.

ozgeorge
Quote from: Fr. George on March 05, 2011, 12:02:14 PM
Quote from: davidtlig on March 05, 2011, 05:56:13 AM
Vassula is on good terms with many Orthodox hierarchy.  The regular pilgrimages she organises always include many Orthodox clergy.  At the last pilgrimage in 2009, the Abbot of Patmos, Archmandrite Antipas visited the 800 strong pilgrimage group.  A photo of him with Vassula during the pilgrimage can be seen at:
http://www.tligpilgrimages.org/greecetwis.html

I think it should be helpful also if I post a link to a detailed report of Vassula’s dealings with the Vatican over the years.  The report includes a photo of Vassula with Cardinal Ratzinger in his office in the Vatican only a few months before he became Pope.  The link is at:  http://www.cdf-tlig.org

Don’t feed us the propaganda.  She is excommunicated and/or a non-member of the Orthodox Church (EO and OO, as documented well here on the ‘net) and the Roman Catholic Church, so spare us.
I don’t think davidtlig is listening. Sadly he is enmeshed in Vassula’s heresy.

http://www.orthodoxchristianity.net/forum/index.php?PHPSESSID=8r0g2bp7k5gd12d94ot1t6cru3&topic=5923.335;wap2
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Irish Hermit
Welcome to a critical website on Vassula Ryden’s True Life in God messages: http://www.infovassula.ch/

davidtlig
Quite a good response website to the above critical site can be found at: http://www.defending-vassula.org/

As for the ‘I don’t think davidtlig is listening’ comment, I think I will be happy to let readers of these exchanges judge who is or is not listening.
Irish Hermit
It is wrong that David, a Roman Catholic, is able to come onto an Orthodox Forum and stir up dispute about Vassula Ryden.
In Catholic Forums such as Catholic Answers it is forbidden to speak about her (as it is about any non-approved seers and visionaries) and any thread there is stopped quickly by the moderators. Promotion of non-approved visionaries is seen as a danger to the Catholic faith. Whereas here we tolerate it…

davidtlig
Quote It is wrong that David, a Roman Catholic, is able to come onto an Orthodox Forum and stir up dispute about Vassula Ryden. 
I would just like to point out that David has not come on the forum to ‘stir up a dispute’.  I came on to the forum simply to respond to a lot of very inaccurate and misleading posts that had been made about Vassula.  It is true that most forums, whether Orthodox or Catholic, are happy to allow discussions about Vassula providing the comments are all critical but then close down discussion if anyone responds in a supportive way to Vassula.
Surely natural justice demands that someone who is criticised or condemned is allowed to defend themselves?
Irish Hermit
Some Statements from Orthodox authorities regarding Vassula Ryden’s “True Life in God” messages
http://www.infovassula.ch/tliggreekorthodox.htm

http://www.orthodoxchristianity.net/forum/index.php/topic,5923.340/wap2.html
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Fr. George
Quote from: davidtlig on March 08, 2011, 04:41:53 AM
Quote She told the world that it was Jesus punishing the Americans.
What Vassula actually said regarding the prophetic ‘Twin Towers’ message can be read at:
http://www.tlig.org/en/messages/654/

Readers will find no venom in Vassula’s commentary on the message.
I remain amazed that people can remain indifferent to the ‘coincidence’ of Vassula receiving the above message 10 years to the day before the actual events in New York.
As to the messages showing the Justice, severity yet Mercy of God, they do of course perfectly reflect Holy Scripture.

There is no coincidence that she has fallen to a demonic apparition masquerading as Christ; the message on the linked page bears no resemblance to the Christ of the New Testament, of revelation, of the Church, of history.  She is a heretic, blasphemer, deceiver, and divider.  Be gone, minion of hers.

Iconodule
The Ecumenical Patriarchate denounces Vassula:
http://www.johnsanidopoulos.com/2011/03/announcement-on-vassula-ryden-by.html

Irish Hermit
So… excommuncation of Vassula and her followers.
Warnings that canonical sanctions will be imposed on Orthodox clergy supporting her.
Please God, this will give pause to Vassula and cause her to rethink and come back to the Church in all humility.
Will these decisions from Constantinople have any flow on effect in the Roman Catholic Church?

88Devin12
Not just denunciation, excommunication. I have to say that I don’t think I’ve seen many official excommunications like this since I’ve been Orthodox (then again, it’s only been a couple years)

Salpy
Within a week, Vassula’s followers will be saying that His All Holiness has changed his position and now accepts Vassula and endorses her writings. 
That’s what they do when the Vatican issues warnings about her.

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ialmisry
Quote from: Salpy on March 17, 2011, 03:15:21 PM
Within a week, Vassula’s followers will be saying that His All Holiness has changed his position and now accepts Vassula and endorses her writings.
That’s what they do when the Vatican issues warnings about her.
That’s fine. At least we have an official excommunication, so the thinking need not bother further with her nonsense and those who cloaked it with the hierarchy’s silence. God guide her and her misguided followers back/to the One, Holy, Catholic and Apostolic Church.

Salpy
Quote from: Irish Hermit on March 08, 2011, 06:15:45 AM
It is wrong that David, a Roman Catholic, is able to come onto an Orthodox Forum and stir up dispute about Vassula Ryden. In Catholic Forums such as Catholic Answers it is forbidden to speak about her (as it is about any non-approved seers and visionaries) and any thread there is stopped quickly by the moderators. Promotion of non-approved visionaries is seen as a danger to the Catholic faith. Whereas here we tolerate it.
It’s allowed so that people can be warned about her.  If we don’t allow any discussion about her, then when people come across her heresy they’ll get taken in by it.

Salpy
The article indicates that nine Orthodox clergy have been found to have promoted her.  Is there anything more on that?  At least one incident is probably the one discussed here:

http://www.orthodoxchristianity.net/forum/index.php/topic,29992.0.html

In reply 86 of this thread, I linked an article where Vassula claimed to have had tea and a joint prayer service with an archbishop in Africa.  I doubt it is true, or Vassula’s followers would be showing the pictures all over the internet.
I would like to know about these nine clergy, not because I want to judge them or gossip about them.  It would just be nice to know, so we can separate out the real incidents where clergy have endorsed her, from the lies told by her and her followers.

Irish Hermit
I feel sorry for her. Unless she has the skin of an elephant it must be dreadful to have been outlawed by both the Synod of the Greek Church in Athens ands now the Patriarchate of Constantinople.
Let’s pray for her. May God’s love for her bring her to healthier attitudes. All these years of plani-prelest will not be easy to slough off.
synLeszka
That archbishop in Africa is probably Milingo. He seems to be very active in his ecumenism. I suggest that you type in Milingo and see what you gets. [Archbishop Milingo was eventually excommunicated –Michael]

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Salpy
I Googled Archbishop Milingo, and he does seem like the kind of person who would get together with Vassula.
Vassula, however, was claiming to be friends with Archbishop Jonah Lwanga:
http://www.orthodoxchristianity.net/forum/index.php/topic,5925.msg531703.html#msg531703

Like I said, I doubt it’s true.  If there were any truth to it, we’d see pictures all over the place and there would be a scandal like with the priest in Romania.

I can’t recall if this article has ever been linked here before, but it’s a good one:
http://www.touchstonemag.com/archives/article.php?id=08-01-017-f

It’s by a Catholic scholar who was asked by Vassula herself to examine her work.  What he had to say did not make her supporters happy.

LizaSymonenko
That makes me nauseous! 

Salpy
You’re not kidding.
It was either in this thread or another thread, where I mentioned that when I spent a few days a while back reading her messages, I felt like purging myself afterwards. 
They are highly emotional, and the worst messages are the ones that come off as inappropriately sexual in nature.  The scholar who wrote the article I just linked picked up on it also.  I’m glad he mentioned it.  It means I’m not the only one who noticed it. 

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arimethea
From the Holy Synod of Constantinople
The Orthodox Church, following strictly the shining example and teaching of the Holy Apostles, the teaching of the Fathers of the Church who have their succession, and the divinely-inspired decisions of the Ecumenical Synods, safeguards as a pearl of great price the faith of the One, Holy, Catholic and Apostolic Church which the Christian plenitude experiences through their participation in the Sacraments and entire spiritual life of the divinely-founded ecclesiastical body.
Hence, whatever movement and improvised tension, personal or collective, in contempt or in breach of the dogmas of the Orthodox Christian faith and life in Christ within the Church as the only path for the salvation of our souls, all the more the self-proclaimed “supposedly charismatic” personality, is rejected always as an unacceptable innovation.
In this spirit, and for the beneficial protection of our pious Orthodox plenitude from dangerous spiritual confusion, who do not know well matters underlying the risk of delusion, rejects from the Mother Church Vasiliki Paraskevis Pentaki – Ryden, widely known as “Vassula”, and her organization founded under the title “True Life In God” which rashly and frivolously proposes teachings based on the supposed “direct dialogue between her and the Founder of the Church Jesus Christ our Lord”, and those conquered by her and the supporters of “True Life In God”, which deviate arbitrarily from the God-given teaching of the Church, but also scandalize the Orthodox phronema of pious believers.
Hence, we call upon the proponents of these unacceptable innovations and the supporters who maintain them, who henceforth are not admitted to ecclesiastical communion, not only to not be involved in the pastoral work of the local Holy Metropolis, but also to not preach their novel teachings, to prevent the appropriate sanctions under the Holy Canons.
We express, lastly, the profound sorrow of the Ecumenical Patriarchate of the acts of some – fortunately few – clergy of the Orthodox Church to be found at talks of the said “Vassula” and give to her a “certificate of Orthodoxy.”
At the Patriarchate, the 16th of March 2011
Of the Chief Secretariat of the Holy and Sacred Synod
Translated by John Sanidopoulos
Sources
http://www.johnsanidopoulos.com/2011/03/announcement-on-vassula-ryden-by.html

http://www.ec-patr.org/docdisplay.php?lang=gr&id=1306&tla=gr

copticyouth93
I think she should have been excommunicated a long time ago.
Pope Theodore of Alexandria, as well as Pope Shenouda have been way too lenient, allowing heretics to practice in both churches. I was ashamed to see videos of Vassula kissing Pope Shenouda’s hand, with her choirs filling the cathedral to the max. I had the same reaction when I saw Pope Theodore’s statement, inviting her to celebrate Easter in Alexandria. He welcomed her into the royal throne room, and accepted her as a valued guest, as if she was a patriarch or something.
This is one of the few times I have been ashamed to be an Orthodox, frankly.
Fr. George
Quote from: copticyouth93 on March 25, 2011, 01:19:27 AM
I think she should have been excommunicated a long time ago. 
She was – by the Church of Greece (her native land), and by the Roman Catholic Church (actually, I think what they did was affirm that she was never Catholic and would never be based on her teachings).

John Larocque
The church in Cyprus weighs in.
http://www.impantokratoros.gr/church-cyprus-vassoula-ryden.en.aspx

Synodical Committee for Matters of Heresy
Holy Archdiocese of Cyprus
13 January 2012.
Topic: The heretical positions of Vassiliki (Vassula) Pendakis-Ryden.
Over the last few days Vassula Ryden has been appearing in the media, giving lectures and trying to come into contact with bishops and priests, giving the impression that she presents and teaches the Orthodox Christian faith. In reality, her teachings are heretical, and her claims that she communicates directly with Christ are fantastical and outside of the spirit of the experience of the our Church.
Seeing that she tries, not only in Cyprus, to present herself as Orthodox and that she possesses certificates of Orthodoxy from bishops, we cite the Ecumenical Patriarchate’s explicit announcement regarding this matter
Meanwhile, she’s launched a lawsuit against a website which reported that she had been excommunicated by the Ecumenical Patriarch.
http://www.infovassula.ch/tlighome.html

http://www.infovassula.ch/thenarrowdoor.htm

Her lawyers:
“Even if the Patriarchate has indeed asked Mrs Ryden to cease her activities among the orthodox community, one has to admit that Mrs Ryden has submitted to the Patriarchate’s will. Indeed, since the Patriarchate’s communication, Mrs Ryden has only participated in conferences that took place exclusively in northern Europe, where the Orthodox Church is almost absent. Nothing impedes Mrs Ryden from meeting Catholic or Protestant faithful. It therefore results that this “choice of a schismatic nature” is a strict obedience to the Patriarchate’s requests.”

LizaSymonenko
Pffffff! Excuse me…..that was me choking on my coffee!
So, the Patriarch’s request to cease and desist only refers to the Orthodox?  Amazing how some people’s minds work – or don’t work.

http://www.orthodoxchristianity.net/forum/index.php/topic,5923.360/wap2.html
73

podkarpatska
As a lawyer, that one made me gag. So, choosing to become a ‘schismatic’ thereby removing you from the community from which you came, no longer automatically ‘excommunicates’ oneself from the Church? There is a whole lot of sophistic scholastic ‘thought’ in that claim not to mention audacity. Wow.

Litigation shuts down site critical of Vassula

http://www.orthodoxchristianity.net/forum/index.php?topic=44782.0;wap2

May 2012

Salpy
This is a shame. The heretic Vassula, through litigation, has finally succeeded in shutting down a very useful website that was set up to warn people about her. It is going to shut down at the end of May:
http://www.infovassula.ch/tliglawsuit2.htm

The history of litigation: http://www.infovassula.ch/tliglawsuit.htm

What a cowardly way to deal with criticism.  I wonder if Vassula is claiming that Christ told her to file the lawsuits. I feel bad for the poor Christian woman who owns the website, Maria Laura Pio. She has worked so hard to help others avoid falling into the trap of Vassula’s heresy, and she has suffered for her efforts.  I think she needs our prayers.

podkarpatska:
Which is why, in the United States of America, our Supreme Court had the wisdom years and years ago, in Times v. Sullivan, a landmark freedom of the press case to set forth the ‘actual malice’ test. The actual malice standard requires that the plaintiff in a defamation or libel case prove that the publisher of the statement in question knew that the statement was false or acted in reckless disregard of its truth or falsity.

Because of the extremely high burden of proof on the plaintiff, and the difficulty in proving essentially what is inside a person’s head, such cases — when they involve public figures — rarely prevail. This woman, by her conduct and self-promotion over the years, would surely have met the ‘public figure’ threshold in the States and this case would have been dismissed or not even been brought.

Salpy
I am very thankful for my first amendment rights. I feel very sorry for Ms. Pio. It seems all she did was reprint a translation of a document by the Ecumenical Patriarch dealing with Vassula. It was translated by a Greek man to say that she was excommunicated.  Vassula claims that it is a mistranslation, and that it is really an accusation of heresy.  As if that is any better. At least that is my understanding of the first lawsuit. If I got this wrong, someone please correct me, but it seems all Ms. Pio did was reprint a translation made by someone else, and because Vassula disagreed with the translation, Ms. Pio was sued.  I don’t think the guy who did the translation was sued, but I could be wrong. I am assuming he was not sued because he lives in the US, where the free speech protections are stronger. Again, someone correct me if I got this wrong.
It seems the latest lawsuit has to do with Ms. Pio using Vassula’s name in her website.  If I understand correctly, it’s like Vassula is claiming some sort of trademark rights over her name and she is suing Ms. Pio for using it. Or something stupid like that.  I think this lawsuit is the final straw and Ms. Pio is just going to take down her website. This really is too bad.  Ms. Pio’s website was a great resource.  You could periodically check it to see what the latest was on Vassula and her heretical happenings.  Ms. Pio was also good about collecting every instance of when a bishop or patriarch warned against Vassula.  It was just a good resource on Vassula, and I don’t know of any others that will take its place. I wish Ms. Pio well, and I hope that the harassing litigation did not take too much of a toll on her.  It must have been very distressing. She’s posted the letters and documents from the suits on her site and people may want to have a look at them before the site goes down.  Reading them, you really get a feeling of how bizarre Vassula is.  Here’s an example from the first lawsuit:
Quote [4] The letter sent to me by Mrs. Ryden’s lawyers begins as follows: “Mrs. Vassula Ryden is the author of a work titled True Life in God: a divine dialogue which contains many messages designed to promote the reunification of the Christian Churches under the authority of the Pope and the Foundation’s founder [= Vassula]”.
http://www.infovassula.ch/thenarrowdoor.htm.
And to think that after Ms. Pio’s website closes, there won’t be any other good resources available to counter this heretic’s activities. Very sad.

Salpy
A Catholic website has an article about it:
Legal action by Vassula Ryden shuts down critical web site

http://www.catholicculture.org/news/headlines/index.cfm?storyid=14282&amp
Catholic World News – May 11, 2012
Vassula Ryden, a Swiss mystic who has claimed to receive personal messages from Jesus, has taken legal action to shut down a web site operated by one of her critics.
Maria Laura Pio, who operated a site that provided information and analysis critical of Ryden’s alleged visions, has announced that she will shut down the site at the end of May 2012, after receiving a letter from an attorney in Wales threatening legal action against her. The attorney claimed that Pio’s site, entitled ‘infovassula’, misleads visitors by creating the impression that it is authorized by Vassula Ryden.
Pio, who had already successfully defended herself against a similar legal action brought by Ryden in Belgium, announced on her site that “I do not have the means financially nor mentally to face another lawsuit,” so she has acceded to the lawyer’s demands.

In 1995 the Vatican’s Congregation for the Doctrine of the Faith issued a warning about the work of Vassula Ryden, saying that her visions should not be regarded as supernatural, that her statements contain doctrinal errors, and that she has been “creating an ecumenical disorder” by sharing regularly in the sacraments of the Catholic Church although she is Greek Orthodox. The Vatican statement instructed bishops “that no opportunity may be provided in their dioceses for the dissemination of her ideas.”

CAUTION:
www.orthodoxchristianity.net
being an Orthodox Christian site,
the reader may have found some anti-Catholic comments which I could not edit to ensure continuity and meaning – Michael

See

VASSULA RYDEN-PROBLEMS WITH ROME BUT WELCOME IN INDIA

http://ephesians-511.net/docs/VASSULA_RYDEN-PROBLEMS_WITH_ROME_BUT_WELCOME_IN_INDIA.doc

VASSULA RYDEN-A CDF NOTIFICATION BISHOPS WARNINGS AND THEOLOGICAL CRITIQUES

http://ephesians-511.net/docs/VASSULA_RYDEN-A_CDF_NOTIFICATION_BISHOPS_WARNINGS_AND_THEOLOGICAL_CRITIQUES.doc

VASSULA RYDEN-THE EUCHARIST AND INTERCOMMUNION ONE DATE AND PAN-CHRISTIAN ECUMENISM

http://ephesians-511.net/docs/VASSULA_RYDEN-THE_EUCHARIST_AND_INTERCOMMUNION_ONE_DATE_AND_PAN-CHRISTIAN_ECUMENISM.doc

http://ephesians-511.net/docs/VASSULA_RYDEN-EXCOMMUNICATED_OR_NOT-A_LAW_SUIT.doc

VASSULA RYDEN-THE REASONS FOR THE CHURCH’S NEGATIVE REACTION

http://ephesians-511.net/docs/VASSULA_RYDEN-THE_REASONS_FOR_THE_CHURCHS_NEGATIVE_REACTION.doc

VASSULA RYDEN-FR FRANCOIS MARIE DERMINE

http://ephesians-511.net/docs/VASSULA_RYDEN-FR_FRANCOIS_MARIE_DERMINE.doc

VASSULA RYDEN-FR MITCH PACWA

http://ephesians-511.net/docs/VASSULA_RYDEN-FR_MITCH_PACWA.doc

VASSULA RYDEN-FR BRIAN HARRISON

http://ephesians-511.net/docs/VASSULA_RYDEN-FR_BRIAN_HARRISON.doc

VASSULA RYDEN-MARIA LAURA PIO

http://ephesians-511.net/docs/VASSULA_RYDEN-MARIA_LAURA_PIO.doc

VASSULA RYDEN-MARK WATERINCKX

http://ephesians-511.net/docs/VASSULA_RYDEN-MARK_WATERINCKX.doc

VASSULA RYDEN-CARDINAL BASIL HUME

http://ephesians-511.net/docs/VASSULA_RYDEN-CARDINAL_BASIL_HUME.doc

VASSULA RYDEN-A CRITIQUE-DIALOGUE CENTRE INTERNATIONAL

http://ephesians-511.net/docs/VASSULA_RYDEN-A_CRITIQUE-DIALOGUE_CENTRE_INTERNATIONAL.doc

VASSULA RYDEN’S JESUS-INGERLISE PROVSTGAARD

http://ephesians-511.net/docs/VASSULA_RYDENS_JESUS-INGERLISE_PROVSTGAARD.doc

VASSULA RYDEN-RICHARD SALBATO

http://ephesians-511.net/docs/VASSULA_RYDEN-RICHARD_SALBATO.doc

VASSULA RYDEN-JOE NICKELL

http://ephesians-511.net/docs/VASSULA_RYDEN-JOE_NICKELL.doc

VASSULA RYDEN-CONSTANCE CUMBEY

http://ephesians-511.net/docs/VASSULA_RYDEN-CONSTANCE_CUMBEY.doc

VASSULA RYDEN-RONALD L CONTE

http://ephesians-511.net/docs/VASSULA_RYDEN-RONALD_L_CONTE.doc

VASSULA RYDEN-AN ORTHODOX CHRISTIAN

http://ephesians-511.net/docs/VASSULA_RYDEN-AN_ORTHODOX_CHRISTIAN.doc

VASSULA RYDEN-LAURENCE ENGLAND

http://ephesians-511.net/docs/VASSULA_RYDEN-LAURENCE_ENGLAND.doc

VASSULA RYDEN-LAURETTE ELSBERRY

http://ephesians-511.net/docs/VASSULA_RYDEN-LAURETTE_ELSBERRY.doc

VASSULA RYDEN-MURIEL

http://ephesians-511.net/docs/VASSULA_RYDEN-MURIEL.doc

VASSULA RYDEN-RICHARD CHONAK

http://ephesians-511.net/docs/VASSULA_RYDEN-RICHARD_CHONAK.doc

VASSULA RYDEN-TERRY NELSON

http://ephesians-511.net/docs/VASSULA_RYDEN-TERRY_NELSON.doc

VASSULA RYDEN-THEOTOKOS

http://ephesians-511.net/docs/VASSULA_RYDEN-THEOTOKOS.doc

VASSULA RYDEN-CATHOLIC ANSWERS

http://ephesians-511.net/docs/VASSULA_RYDEN-CATHOLIC_ANSWERS.doc

VASSULA RYDEN-CATHOLIC DOORS

http://ephesians-511.net/docs/VASSULA_RYDEN-CATHOLIC_DOORS.doc

VASSULA RYDEN-BENEDICT TANG

http://ephesians-511.net/docs/VASSULA_RYDEN-BENEDICT_TANG.doc

VASSULA RYDEN-BRO IGNATIUS MARY

http://ephesians-511.net/docs/VASSULA_RYDEN-BRO_IGNATIUS_MARY.doc

VASSULA RYDEN-INTERNATIONAL MARIAN RESEARCH INSTITUTE

http://ephesians-511.net/docs/VASSULA_RYDEN-INTERNATIONAL_MARIAN_RESEARCH_INSTITUTE.doc

VASSULA RYDEN-INVESTIGATE VASSULA

http://ephesians-511.net/docs/VASSULA_RYDEN-INVESTIGATE_VASSULA.doc

VASSULA RYDEN-EWTN

http://ephesians-511.net/docs/VASSULA_RYDEN-EWTN.doc

VASSULA RYDEN-SUSAN BRINKMANN

http://ephesians-511.net/docs/VASSULA_RYDEN-SUSAN_BRINKMANN.doc

VASSULA RYDEN-TE DEUM

http://ephesians-511.net/docs/VASSULA_RYDEN-TE_DEUM.doc

VASSULA RYDEN-DANIEL KLIMEK

http://ephesians-511.net/docs/VASSULA_RYDEN-DANIEL_KLIMEK.doc

VASSULA RYDEN-TONY-ALLEN CUCOLO

http://ephesians-511.net/docs/VASSULA_RYDEN-TONY-ALLEN_CUCOLO.doc

VASSULA RYDEN-SGERBIC

http://ephesians-511.net/docs/VASSULA_RYDEN-SGERBIC.doc

VASSULA RYDEN-TESTIMONIES

http://ephesians-511.net/docs/VASSULA_RYDEN_TESTIMONIES.doc

VASSULA RYDEN-NOTIFICATION
CDF, OCTOBER 6, 1995

http://ephesians-511.net/docs/VASSULA_RYDEN-NOTIFICATION.doc

VASSULA RYDEN-THE TLIG APOLOGISTS

http://ephesians-511.net/docs/VASSULA_RYDEN-THE_TLIG_APOLOGISTS.doc

Categories: False Mystics

Tags: Vassula Ryden