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The Ordination of Women and Radical Feminism

By EPHESIANS-511.NET on April 30, 2013 • ( 0 )

APRIL 28, 2013

All entries are, as far as possible, in chronological order. The information herein will be updated regularly.

Santa Barbara, California

Link to a 9:46 minute video on Google Videos
“Highlights from Roman Catholic Womenpriests’ liturgy at Call to Action”

this video downloads on either Windows or Mac

Link to a 3:55 minute video on Google Videos
“Roman Catholic Womenpriests Celebrate Eucharist at Call to Action”

This video downloads on either Windows or Mac

Link to a 3:44 minute video on Google Videos

“A New Inclusive Model of Priestly Ministry”
this video downloads on either Windows or Mac

Andrea M. Johnson was ordained a Roman Catholic Womanpriest in 2007 and bishop in 2009

Roman Catholic Womenpriests, Milwaukee, Wisconsin

YouTube movies of ordination ceremony of first womenbishops ordained in the United States by Roman Catholic Womenpriests

Entrance Procession:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=0-tsOVVddBo

Asemwald, Stuttgart, Germany
Episcopal Ordination and Priest Ordination, Stuttgart, Germany

Left to Right: Christel Hildebrand (Lutheran Minister); Bishop Gisela Forster; Bishop Dana Reynolds (newly consecrated bishop); Suzanne A. Thiel (newly ordained priest); Bishop Ida Raming; Bishop Patricia Fresen; Unknown Lutheran Minister; Regina Laedwig (German deacon)

Roman Catholic Womenpriests Celebrate Eucharist at CALL TO ACTION 30th Anniversary Conference in Milwaukee, Wisconsin

The Ordination of Roman Catholic Womenpriests and Womendeacons:
July 31, 2006 in Pittsburgh, Pennsylvania, Presiding bishops: Gisela Forster, Patricia Fresen, Ida Raming of Germany

Link to a 26 minute video on Google Videos
“Ordination of Womenpriests in the Roman Catholic Church”
This video downloads on either Windows or Mac

Link to an 8 minute video on Google Videos

“Womenpriests Press Conference and Ordination”
this video downloads on either Windows or Mac

The Ordination of Roman Catholic Womenpriests and Womendeacons:

June 24, 2006 in Bodensee, Germany, Presiding bishops: Gisela Forster, Patricia Fresen and Ida Raming

Click here to see images

The Ordination of Women and Radical Feminism

DOCUMENTS ON THIS MINISTRY’S WEB SITE RELATED TO THE ORDINATION OF WOMEN

1. VIRGINIA SALDANHA-ECCLESIA OF WOMEN IN ASIA AND CATHERINE OF SIENA VIRTUAL COLLEGE-FEMINIST THEOLOGY AND THE ORDINATION OF WOMEN PRIESTS

http://ephesians-511.net/docs/VIRGINIA_SALDANHA-ECCLESIA_OF_WOMEN_IN_ASIA_AND_CATHERINE_OF_SIENA_VIRTUAL_COLLEGE-FEMINIST_THEOLOGY_AND_THE_ORDINATION_OF_WOMEN_PRIESTS.doc

2. VIRGINIA SALDANHA-WOMENPRIESTS INFILTRATES THE INDIAN CHURCH-CATHERINE OF SIENA VIRTUAL COLLEGE

http://ephesians-511.net/docs/VIRGINIA_SALDANHA-WOMENPRIESTS_INFILTRATES_THE_INDIAN_CHURCH-CATHERINE_OF_SIENA_VIRTUAL_COLLEGE.doc

3. WOMEN PRIESTS-THE NCR-UCAN-EWA NEXUS

http://ephesians-511.net/docs/WOMEN_PRIESTS-THE_NCR-UCAN-EWA_NEXUS.doc

4. UCAN WANTS TO DO AWAY WITH THE PRIESTHOOD

http://ephesians-511.net/docs/UCAN_WANTS_TO_DO_AWAY_WITH_THE_PRIESTHOOD.doc

5. UCAN CONFIRMS IT FAVOURS WOMEN PRIESTS

http://ephesians-511.net/docs/UCAN_CONFIRMS_IT_FAVOURS_WOMEN_PRIESTS.doc

6. UCAN CONFIRMS IT FAVOURS WOMEN PRIESTS-02

http://ephesians-511.net/docs/UCAN_CONFIRMS_IT_FAVOURS_WOMEN_PRIESTS-02.doc

7. UCAN’S SLANTED QUESTIONNAIRE ON THE CATHOLIC’S CHOICE FOR POPE

http://ephesians-511.net/docs/UCANS_SLANTED_QUESTIONNAIRE_ON_THE_CATHOLICS_CHOICE_FOR_POPE.doc

8. NEW COMMUNITY BIBLE 15–DEMAND FOR ORDINATION OF WOMEN PRIESTS-FR SUBHASH ANAND AND OTHERS

http://ephesians-511.net/docs/NEW_COMMUNITY_BIBLE_15-DEMAND_FOR_ORDINATION_OF_WOMEN_PRIESTS-FR_SUBHASH_ANAND_AND_OTHERS.doc

9. ARCHBISHOP OF DELHI SUPPORTS WOMEN’S ORDINATION

http://ephesians-511.net/docs/ARCHBISHOP_OF_DELHI_SUPPORTS_WOMENS_ORDINATION.doc

10a. WASHING THE FEET OF WOMEN ON HOLY THURSDAY

http://ephesians-511.net/docs/WASHING_THE_FEET_OF_WOMEN_ON_HOLY_THURSDAY.doc

10b. QUO VADIS PAPA FRANCISCO 01-WASHING THE FEET OF WOMEN ON MAUNDY THURSDAY

http://ephesians-511.net/docs/QUO_VADIS_PAPA_FRANCISCO_01-WASHING_THE_FEET_OF_WOMEN_ON_MAUNDY_THURSDAY.doc

The above 11 reports are listed in the chronological order in which they were written and first published.

Vatican says
women priests
a ‘crime against faith’

http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/worldnews/europe/vaticancityandholysee/7892666/Vatican-says-women-priests-a-crime-against-faith.html
EXTRACT

By Fiona Govan, July 15, 2010

The new rules issued by the Vatican puts attempts at ordaining women among the “most serious crimes” alongside paedophilia and will be handled by investigators from the Congregation for the Doctrine of the Faith (CDF), considered the successor to the Inquisition.

Women attempting to be priests, and those who try to ordain them, already faced automatic excommunication but the new decree goes further and enshrines the action as “a crime against sacraments”.

The unexpected ruling follows Pope Benedict XVI’s open-armed welcome to Anglican clergy dissatisfied with General Synod attempts to compromise over calls for the ordination of women as bishops.

Under current plans the first women bishops could be ordained in the Anglican Church as soon as 2014, a move which has caused a deep schism between reformers and traditionalists, who threaten to leave the Church of England in droves and defect to Rome.

A group of 70 disgruntled clergy met with a Catholic bishop on Saturday to discuss plans to defect to the Roman Catholic Church and hundreds are said to be poised for an exodus to Rome.

Earlier this year three bishops travelled to the Vatican to talk over an offer made by Pope Benedict XVI inviting disillusioned Anglicans to convert to Catholicism, while still keeping tenets of their own faith.

Within the Roman Catholic Church itself there have been growing calls to allow women to become priests in the wake of the widespread paedophilia scandal.

A demonstration staged in St Peter’s Square last month saw calls for the Pope to open the ranks of priests to women to renew the Church and solve a chronic shortage in ministries around the world. Women priests have been allowed in the Anglican Church since 1992.

But the Vatican made its stance clear on by comparing such actions to child abuse crimes and issuing new rules for investigating both by the same disciplinary body.

Federico Lombardi, the Vatican spokesman, underscored how the ordination of women is “a crime against sacraments,” while paedophilia should be considered a “crime against morals” and both would fall under the jurisdiction of the CDF.

The organisation, which was once known as the Holy Office of the Inquisition, was previously headed by the current Pope when he was Cardinal Joseph Ratzinger.

The Archbishop of Canterbury, Dr Rowan Williams, has been outspoken in his support for an equal role for women within the Anglican Church. “My hope and prayer is that we shall see women ordained as bishops in the Church of England,” he said recently.

“My hope and prayer is also that we do that in a way which does not so violently disrupt some of our common life and some important features of it, that we actually lose one another in the process.”

The Church of England would not comment on the move by Rome. “It is not our policy to comment on the affairs of other Churches,” a spokesman said.

Wymynprysts yn Mynnysota

http://wdtprs.com/blog/2011/12/wymynprysts-yn-mynnysota/

Posted on 11 December 2011 by Fr. John Zuhlsdorf
[All emphases are those of Fr. Z]

In the Star Tribune, ultra-liberal newspaper of my native place, there is an article about wywmwmnyprysts.

It is too long and dull for you, so here are some bits. Let’s have a look with my emphases and comments.

Female priests push Catholic boundaries

By Rose French, Star Tribune

Dressed in a priestly white robe and green stole, Monique Venne lifted communion bread before an altar — defying centuries of Catholic Church law.
[The writer stumbles in the first line: This is not just a matter of law. This is the Church’s teaching… the Church’s DOC-TRINE. Were it just a “law”, or as supporters of the impossible like to call it “policy” it could be changed. The writer will call them “priests” or “Catholic priests” throughout.]

Despite promises of excommunication from the Vatican, she and six other women in Minnesota say they are legitimate, ordained Catholic priests, fit to celebrate the mass. They trace their status through a line of ordained women bishops back to anonymous male bishops
[cowards]
in Europe.
[Gratis asseritur, gratis negatur]

“We love the church, but we see this great wrong,” said Venne, 54, who co-founded Compassion of Christ Church, a Minneapolis congregation that just celebrated its first anniversary.
[WOW! A founder of a CHURCH? Along with about 15,000 others in the USA.]
“Not allowing women to be at the altar is a denigration of their dignity. [False] We want the church to be the best it can be. If one leaves, one cannot effect change. So we’re pushing boundaries.”
[If one leaves…? This from the one who founded a “church” apart from the Catholic Church. Loopy.]

Minnesota has emerged as a hotbed
[found directly under the seething cauldron]
for the growing movement to ordain women as priests, with the highest per-capita number of female Catholic priests
[No. They are not “priests”. They probably aren’t “catholic” at this point. And they are “wymyn”, now, I think. No?]
in the nation, according to the organization Roman Catholic Womenpriests. Women [not-] priests are working in the Twin Cities, Red Wing, Winona, Clear Lake and soon St. Cloud. The group claims about 70 women priests in the United States and more than 100 worldwide.

Several Protestant denominations have allowed women to be ordained ministers for decades. But the Catholic Church views an all-male priesthood as unchangeable, “based on the example of Jesus, who, even though he had revered relationships with women who were his disciples, chose only men to be his apostles,” said Dennis McGrath, spokesman for the Archdiocese of St. Paul and Minneapolis.

“Women who claim to have been ordained Catholic priests in fact have no relationship to the Catholic Church because their ordination is not valid,” he said.

Dozens of congregations

An increasing number of Catholics disagree with the church on this. In a poll last year by the New York Times and CBS, 59 percent of U.S. Catholics favored letting women become priests, with 33 percent opposed.

That’s encouraging news for Roman Catholic Womenpriests, founded nearly nine years ago in Europe. It began after seven women were ordained aboard a ship on the Danube River by three male bishops. The group claims their ordinations are valid because they conform within the bounds of “apostolic succession.”
[How stupid can you get? That stupid, as a matter of fact! Being on a river has nothing to do with that.]

“I do believe we are connecting through the original church, which started with the apostles,” said Regina Nicolosi, 69, of Red Wing, who became bishop
[ROFL!]
for Womenpriests’ Midwest region in 2009. […]

The rest is just… frankly… sad. The rest is just plain sad.

Do you suppose they all have their “ordination tambourines“?

6 SELECTED [OUT OF 55] COMMENTS

“Probably” not Catholic? Allowing for my advancing age, and fading memory capacity, I seem to recall reading on this very blog some discussion of a pronouncement from one or another of the Congregations at the Vatican that “ordination” of a woman was not grounds for excommunication, but was functionally excommunication late sententiae. My understanding of this is that the wymyn excommunicate themselves, by the act itself. Have I misunderstood? If I am correct in my understanding, it would seem to follow that they cannot be other than outside the Church so long as they persist in their delusions.-W Meyer

Not only that, W Meyer, but anything they set up in the way of a “community” can’t be authorized by the local diocese and will be schismatic by definition, simply because it would encourage people to attend something else besides an authorized diocesan mass on Sunday. This is neo-Protestantism.-Catholic Midwest

Well although someone can be spiritually outside the Church technically it’s no longer possible to leave the Catholic Church. Even someone excommunicated is still Catholic, excommunication is a canonical penalty under Catholic canon law to which they continue to be subject. Something who isn’t Catholic can’t be “excommunicated”.-Elizabeth D

Elizabeth D wrote, “Well although someone can be spiritually outside the Church technically it’s no longer possible to leave the Catholic Church. Even someone excommunicated is still Catholic”.

I have heard this claim many times, but it isn’t true. It is true, as far as I know, that the canonical censure of excommunication no longer places one outside the body of the Church, but formerly major excommunication, vitandi, did. Further, they who are public heretics, schismatic or apostates are not members of the Church. Pius XII mentions this in Mystici corporis, including how one is really a member of the Church when cut off for grave offenses committed. In Ludwig Ott’s Fundamentals of Catholic Dogma, he mentions that the following are not members of the Church 1) the unbaptised, 2) public (whether formal or material) heretics, apostates or schismatic 3) Excommunicati vitandi. Everyone else is. The lat category meant the strongest form of excommunication. It was never latae sententiae, always ferendae sententiae and vitandi means shunned. Yes, Catholic used to shun certain people and literally not let them even set foot in the door of a Church. This was opposed to excommuncati tolerati, where contact with such persons was allowed and these, according to Ott at least, are still counted as members of the Church.

At the very least, when they manifest publicly schism they cease to be members of the Church, anymore than Anglicans or Baptists are members. All the baptised of course, without exception, are under the jurisdiction of the Church’s laws…indeed the 1917 Code still had something about Protestants marrying each other. –Joshua

I always find it curious that those who demand Scriptural support for aspects of the priesthood (celibacy, men-only, etc.) are most often the ones who ignore what is in the Bible regarding conception, homosexuality and divorce. -Dax

The cynical part of me can’t help but wonder how long it is until faithful bishops get in trouble because they fail to discipline wymynpriests who are suspected–or proven–of abuse. -Ryan

An opinion piece about the ordination of women (well done!)

http://wdtprs.com/blog/2011/12/strib-an-opinion-piece-about-the-ordination-of-women-well-done/

Posted on 14 December 2011 by Fr. John Zuhlsdorf
[All emphases are those of Fr. Z]

A few days ago I posted something from the liberal newspaper of my native place, the Minneapolis Star Tribune about wymyn who thynk they are prysts.

Today there is an opinion piece in response:

As a 20-something Catholic woman with a master’s degree in theology, I found the article “Female priests push Catholic boundaries” (Dec. 11) relevant and provocative.

Having shown a religious interest at a young age, I often was asked whether I would want to be a priest when I grew up. It seemed to me a possibility at the time.

When the question of the ordination of women first became especially prominent in the 1970s, Pope Paul VI called for a team to research and explain the church’s teaching on the subject.

Looking into such fields as history, sociology and psychology, in addition to theology, some questions raised were: What is the priesthood? Have women been ordained before?

Did Christ allow for it? Is it in the Scriptures? What did the Apostles do?

What has the teaching of the church been over the centuries? How does the church acknowledge and affirm the participatory role of women in the church and in contemporary society?

After thorough consultation, it was determined that it is not in the church’s power to ordain women — not just that it won’t, but that it can’t. There is nothing the church can do to “make” the ordination of women valid.

This is because the Catholic Church does not manufacture what is true, but looks at the way things are, the way God has given them to us.

And that is one of the main reasons I am still a practicing Catholic. I want to know what is true, not just what I want to be true.

Over recent decades, a number of intelligent but sensitive Vatican documents have further explained the church’s teaching on ordination, as well as on the essential and irreplaceable role of women and the laity. (These articles are readily available in print form and online.)

Over time, the question “So, do you want to be a priest?” has become, to me, offensive. [NB:] It implies that the ordained ministry is the only way to be “in” the church, and that my current roles as a lay Catholic woman are somehow inadequate. [Exactly. It is a horrible form of “clericalism” to suggest that to, say, participate actively in liturgical worship, you have to do what the priest does, as if you are not good enough unless you are being “clericalized”.]

All Catholics have an essential part to play in the church, and not just inside the church building. There are unique things that a single woman or a religious sister or a mother can do that a priest cannot.

Similarly, there are family fathers, single men, and non-ordained, consecrated men (brothers, monks, etc), who each have their own important contribution to make.

We all have to work together, in our various roles, to be one body of Christians.

The news article also made numerous references to the declining number of male Catholic priests as one of the reasons to ordain women.

This runs contrary to accessible, easily verifiable evidence that the enrollment of young men in U.S. Catholic seminaries has actually increased in recent years. Many seminaries have more men enrolled this year than they have had in decades; some are even full.

Being of the same generation, I am especially proud of these men, who have grown up hearing nothing but ridicule of their church in the public arena, yet have found a love for their Catholic faith and have answered a call to give their lives in service of others.

It is what we are all called to do in our various states of life. As a woman, I look forward to working alongside these priests in the future — without being one.

* * *

Katherine Thomas is a Twin Cities bookseller and religious educator.

5 SELECTED [OUT OF 27] COMMENTS

Just the best statement on this issue that I’ve ever seen! Seriously, no mere man (whether ordained or not) could say it so convincingly. –Henry Edwards

The Magisterium infallibly teaches that the Church does not have the authority to ordain women to the priesthood. Ordinatio Sacerdotalis only addressed ‘priestly ordination’, i.e. ‘ordination to the priesthood’. The ordination of women to the deaconate is still an open question.-Ron Conte

While it is true that magisterial texts on the issue have only mentioned the Priesthood, it makes sense that the Diaconate, as the first grade of Holy Orders, is also included. Valid matter for Holy Orders, by Divine Law, is a baptized male. If a baptized woman is invalid matter for one grade of Holy Orders it must also be invalid for all grades of Holy Orders. –Smad

The idea that the Church lacks the authority to ordain women as priests or bishops is an infallible teaching of the Magisterium. The idea that the Church also lacks the authority to ordain women as deacons is a theological opinion.

The Magisterium has not infallibly taught that only males are valid matter. Also, the Church has the authority and ability, to a limited extent, to change the conditions for a valid Sacrament. So the ordination of women deacons remains an open question.-Ron Conte

A priest who was my theology professor at a Catholic college asked if I had considered becoming a priest. I “think” he was joking. Ugh! I was 23 and newly married– and a woman– I cringed and replied that I had considered the convent before God sent my husband to me. I was active in my parish as a catechist, lector, and “youth minister” at that time.
My husband and I have gradually become much more traditional as we have learned more Church history and Latin along side our children through homeschooling. Now as I sit in the pew at Mass in the EF, it is so evident to me that as a wife and mother if I am NOT in the pew as my vocation calls, “doing my job”, the Church CAN’T go on!!! We are to impart the Faith, and this is the greatest privilege and responsibility I am called to fill in all my duties as a mother. There is nothing power-less in that! As a former feminist I have felt the MOST free in the Traditional Mass – I now KNOW my place as a woman and am rejoicing in that as never before! Such a great enlightening! The EF has for us made everything so black and white, so crystal CLEAR – just what I always craved from Mass but was not as evident with so many “helpers” at the altar.
My 7 yr old son also CLEARLY sees the role of the priest in the EF as one of great importance and responsibility. He is drawn to the masculinity of it all with nearly 20 acolytes serving. In these days when gender roles are so blurred, the EF beautifully restores right order and clarity to male and female like NOTHING else can. It is the only hope (in my opinion) to restore our culture. Hence, I REALLY get it now, Fr. Z.: Save the Liturgy, save the world!-Stabat Mater

Of Women Priests and Ecumenism and how we should respond. Wherein Fr. Z rants

http://wdtprs.com/blog/2012/07/of-women-priests-and-ecumenism-and-how-we-should-respond-wherein-fr-z-rants/

Posted on 7 July 2012 by Fr. John Zuhlsdorf
[All emphases are those of Fr. Z]

I was sent something from the California Catholic Daily about a member of parish liturgy committee who participated in a fake and sacrilegious “ordination” by Roman Catholic Womenpriests. My emphases:

A member of the liturgy committee at a San Francisco parish was “ordained a deacon” on Saturday, June 23, according to the website of Roman Catholic Womenpriests. Participants in such sham ceremonies are automatically excommunicated, but the group has repeatedly rejected the ruling of the Congregation for the Doctrine of the Faith on the subject.

The event took place at Trinity Episcopal Church in San Francisco, where Olivia Doko, “bishop” of the Western Region of Roman Catholic Womenpriests, “ordained” Maria Eitz. […]

When these things come up, we tend to focus on the internal Catholic reaction and on the deluded women who are into this stuff.

We must consider questions both ad intra and also ad extra.

We have to also pay attention to the Protestants who host them.

Look. We either take ecumenism seriously or we don’t. If we do – and I believe we must – we have to react strongly when ecumenical ideals are so grossly violated by Protestants who invite or permit these “women priest” ceremonies in their churches.

The most sacred rites of the Catholic Church are Holy Mass and ordination to Holy Orders. These are sine quibus non for our Catholic identity and the continuance of Holy Church Herself. They are of divine origin. They are for us most sacred. To treat sacred things with lack of due respect or reverence is the sin of sacrilege.

From our point of view as Catholics, these women-priest supporters are committing sacrilege in simulating Mass and Orders.

The Protestants who host them are also, objectively speaking, committing a sacrilege. They are permitting or inviting a mockery of our Holy Mass and a mockery of the priesthood.

When Protestants allow dissident Catholics to commit sacrileges in their churches, they effectively wave their middle-digit directly in the face of the Catholic Church.

For a long time progressivist Catholics were staging Jewish sedar* meals in their churches. Some Jews were angered by this. The Catholics weren’t intending to give disrespect but that it how it was perceived. Except in some rare cases I suppose, Catholic don’t simulate their sacred Jewish rite anymore. We got the message from the Jews and stopped doing what was offensive to them. *It should read as ‘Seder’

There is no confusion in the religious world about what the Catholic Church teaches about Mass and ordination, about who may celebrate Mass and who may be ordained. There is NO confusion about what the Church teaches! Nevertheless, Protestants invite what the Catholic Church teaches is sacrilege to be committed in their churches.

Furthermore, in allowing this group of fakers into their churches, the Protestants are accepting the premise that what the women are doing in there actually is a Catholic ordination and Mass.

How dare PROTESTANTS decide what a Catholic Mass is?

And if they respond, “Gee, we mean no disrespect. We are just giving space to this group”, then what they are doing is aiding a protest against the Catholic Church.

There is no way around this. Protestants who give these fakers aid are either on their side, and thus support their claim that what they are doing really is an ordination and Mass, or in claiming not to be taking sides they are still giving support to an anti-Catholic protest.

“But Father! But Father!” you are certainly saying by now, “There really isn’t anything we can do about this! They can do what they like in their churches and we are powerless!”

I respond: We are not powerless. Bishops must act.

Can we forget the puppets? Ever?

Imagine that some women-priest fakers have a sacrilegious ceremony at, say, St. Swithan-by-the Slough Episcopal Church – or whatever Protestant church – in Tall Tree Circle, within in the territory of the Catholic Diocese of Black Duck.

Upon hearing the news that this ceremony is going to take place (or has taken place), the Catholic Bishop of Black Duck must call the pastor of that Protestant parish and say, “I’m the Catholic Bishop. Do not allow this sacrilege to be committed in your church.” (Mutatis mutandis, if it already happened of course.) He goes on to say, “You wouldn’t do this for a group of dissident Jews wanting to ordain rabbis, but we are Catholics so you don’t care what offense you give us. Until an apology is issued, don’t look for us to dialogue with you again.”

Then the Catholic Bishop of Black Duck calls the head of the denomination, the Episcopalian Bishop of the zone or whomever they have depending on the group, and unloads the same message.

Then the Catholic Bishop sends informative notes to the USCCB’s ecumenical office, to the CDF and to the Pontifical Council for Promoting Christian Unity in order to let them know the facts about the sacrileges against our most sacred rites and sacraments that were committed – with their help – in their church.

Then you call the press.

“But FATHER!” some of you are saying, all aghast and aflutter, “That’s… that’s… isn’t that over the top? Isn’t that a terrible over-reaction? You’ll hurt ecumenism! Shouldn’t we take the high road? Turn the other cheek? Be nice! Your response should be, I dunno, more proportionate!”

I respond: “PIFFLE! BULL PIFFLE!”

Protestants invite or permit sacrilege and anti-Catholic protest in their church and, when we say we don’t like it, Catholics are guilty of slowing down ecumenism? I. Think. NOT.

And as for a “proportionate response”, what would that be?

You want a “proportionate response”? Here’s a proportionate response!

Given that we are talking about the most sacred rites we have, a proportionate response would have to be something like a special service in the Cathedral of Black Duck. There would be a prayer of reparation for the sacrilege at St. Swithan-by-the Slough, a sermon about the theological errors of their sect, and prayers for the mercy of God on their souls lest they go to Hell. There would be handouts about the true teaching of the Church on Holy Mass and Holy Orders and, also, true ecumenism, articles in the local diocesan newspaper describing the errors of the sect and that they are not a true Church in the sense recognized by the Catholic Church. There would be weeks of sermons in every pulpit of the Diocese of Black Duck… Get the drift? That’s proportionate.

The response of my fictional Bishop of Black Duck is actually pretty mild compared to a proportionate response.

Take the higher road? Okay, let’s do. Let’s take the high road of true ecumenism. Let’s start by not lying to each other and committing sacrilege against what others hold sacred.

True ecumenism does not consist in lying down and letting some other church kick you and define what Mass is for you, or say who can be ordained, or stick their “F-You” finger in your face when letting in these sacrilegious fakers.

Enough.

13 SELECTED [OUT OF 101] COMMENTS
[Interjections within brackets [] in red colour are by Fr. Z]

Devil’s advocate hat on. Doesn’t this essentially rule out almost all ecumenical gestures towards other Christian sects? By which I mean, objectively most of their rites are–from the perspective of Catholic theology–just as sacrilegious. So do we demand that Anglicans stop performing Anglican ordinations before we consent to have a dialogue with them and start a protest every time the Lutherans hold a communion liturgy? [I think this is a different situation. What they do, consistent with their own books, their churches is not the same as having dissident Catholics do bad things in their churches.] –Diem

Father, take it from a refugee, the episcopal organization is not a Christian entity. They aren’t even pretending anymore. They couldn’t care less about ecumenism with Christians; they would rather hang out with pagans. The best you can say about their group is that they are Universalists. Right now, in the midst of General Convention, one group of bishops is busy suing another group of bishops because group B bishops testified truthfully in depositions in law suits where group A bishops are suing group C bishops. Their dying cult is imploding, and not a minute too soon. I just wish these womyn would go ahead and join the Piskies and stop pretending to be Catholics.

As for our own leaders, I ardently wish our Catholic Bishops would speak up to defend the faith on lots of issues, not just this one. I’m grateful for their united stand on the HHS mandate, and I’m hopeful they’ll start defending the faith a big more vigorously. –Sissy

In addition, why can’t the USCCB just put together a list of behaviors such as the above, along with all of the other common offenses committed by dissidents. Then the USCCB distributes it to all Bishops under orders from the President of the USCCB to begin enforcing warnings for first offenses with excommunications to follow, effective immediately. Any Bishop who doesn’t follow through should be subject to a peer review and hearing by the USCCB. If after that, the matter can still not be resolved, the Bishop who was subject to review gets reported to the proper authority in the Vatican.

Start holding Bishops accountable in some way so the bad apples will be called out and dealt with if they don’t reconcile, and the good apples will hopefully establish and enforce a similar system among the priests of their Diocese.

Maybe if the USCCB takes Fr. Z’s suggestion along with taking on the dissenters in their own ranks, we’ll stop making a laughing stock of ourselves while simultaneously allowing others to do the same. -Orthodox Chick

Frankly so much of what passes as Ecumenism is of this ilk.
–Hiermonk

Diem: The difference is this: when First Lutheran Church, or Second Presbyterian Church, etc., have their own Lutheran, Presbyterian or whatever service, it is not in any way being presented as worship as Catholics engage in it. When they ordain their own ministers–however they do it–it is not, in any way, being presented as the ordination of a Catholic priest. I admit I don’t monitor all their activities, but I will bet they don’t do that. On the contrary, they’d be very clear, if you ask, that they are doing a Methodist thing, or an Assembly of God thing, etc. They aren’t attempting to simulate, or host, a Catholic sacrament or rite. But when they do–whether it be a fake ordination, as Father referred to, and from that, a fake Mass; or else, let us imagine, they proceeded to host other Catholic rituals–and made them known as such–then we have something different. -Fr. Martin Fox

When a local Protestant church, the Zion United Church of Christ (Gresham), hosted the attempted ordination of women within the Archdiocese of Portland in the summer of 2007, an event characterized by its promoters as the ordination of Roman Catholic priests, Archbishop Vlazny publicly took issue when the event was characterized as Roman Catholic in the Oregonian newspaper. He essentially said that what you do in your church is your business, right up to the point where you let it be implied that my church is doing it. At that point, you are crossing a very important and non-negotiable boundary. He said he hoped the disrespect for our sacraments was not intentional. In 2008, the same group held their attempted ordinations not only at the very same church, but this time on the very same day that Archbishop Vlazny was performing valid ordinations at the Cathedral. So much for “unintentional”disrespect.

I tried to explain to someone once that the North learned that it is impossible to appease those who would secede in order to manipulate the group to bend to their will. When you are done, you will have forfeited your integrity, and yet their demands will not stop until you concede all control over to them. You will have sold your soul for nothing…and if this is true in a democracy, how much more is it true of those whose sacred duty it is to exercise authority beholden only to the truth! This is something that the Church understands and most of America seems to have forgotten since it was learned the hard way in the 1860s. -BLB

I guess our leaders have not yet come to the realization that “ecumenism” is a one way street. Evangelization is the only “street” we should be on. We cannot cooperate with error. -Bea

Fr Z: Did you see? This article and your comments were listed on “Courageous Priest” http://www.courageouspriest.com/

-Bea

Someone may have already made this point, but I’ll make it again:

“From our point of view as Catholics, these women-priest supporters are committing sacrilege in simulating Mass and Orders.”

But, from our point of view…that’s what the Episcopalians are already doing each week.

“The Protestants who host them are also, objectively speaking, committing a sacrilege. They are permitting or inviting a mockery of our Holy Mass and a mockery of the priesthood.”

Again…that’s what the Episcopalians ALREADY do each week.

“When Protestants allow dissident Catholics to commit sacrileges in their churches, they effectively wave their middle-digit directly in the face of the Catholic Church.”

The Protestants ARE dissident Catholics who commit sacrileges in their churches.

Why is it at all surprising or objectionable that Episcopalians, a group that performs mock sacraments with womenpriests of their own in rebellion against the Catholic Church from which they sprang…would provide aid and comfort to a new, similar Protestant sect??

I really don’t see why this is remarkable at all. Or by what (double) standards you imagine we should get mad at them for hosting the Womynpriests but then not simply be mad at them for existing themselves in the first place. –Oneros

Here http://www.zenit.org/article-3431?l=english is the link to the January 2002 interview with Abp. Müller, the new prefect of the CDF, in which he answered a few questions which are repeatedly asked today:

Q: Is it possible to separate the diaconate of women from the priesthood of women?

Müller: No — because of the unity of the sacrament of orders, which has been underlined in the deliberations of the Theological Commission; it cannot be measured with a different yardstick. Then it would be a real discrimination of woman if she is considered as apt for the diaconate, but not for the presbyterate or episcopacy.

The unity of the sacrament would be torn at its root if, the diaconate as ministry of service, was opposed to the presbyterate as ministry of government, and from this would be deduced that woman, as opposed to man, has a greater affinity to serve and because of this would be apt for the diaconate but not for the presbyterate.

However, the apostolic ministry all together is a service in the three degrees in which it is exercised.

The Church does not ordain women, not because they are lacking some spiritual gift or natural talent, but because — as in the sacrament of marriage — the sexual difference and of the relation between man and woman contains in itself a symbolism that presents and represents in itself a prior condition to express the salvific dimension of the relation of Christ and the Church.

If the deacon, with the bishop and presbyter, starting from the radical unity of the three degrees of the orders, acts from Christ, head and Spouse of the Church, in favor of the Church, it is obvious that only a man can represent this relation of Christ with the Church.

Q: Are there binding doctrinal declarations regarding the question of the feminine diaconate?

Müller: The liturgical and theological tradition of the Church uses unanimous language. It is a binding and irreversible teaching of the Church on this matter, which is guaranteed by the ordinary and general magisterium of the Church, but which can be confirmed again with greater authority if the doctrinal tradition of the Church continues to be presented in an adulterated manner, for the purpose of forcing the evolution of a specific direction.

I am amazed at the lack of historical knowledge of some, and the absence of the meaning of faith; if it wasn’t like this, they would know that it has never been possible and never will be to place the Church, precisely, in the central ambit of her doctrine and liturgy, in contradiction with sacred Scripture and her own Tradition.

Q: What happens when a validly ordained bishop, outside the communion of the Church, ordains a woman as deaconess?

Müller: Invisibly, that is, before God, nothing happens, because such an ordination is invalid. Visibly, that is, in the Church, if something [like this] happens, a Catholic bishop who carries out an irregular ordination incurs the penalty of excommunication.

Q: Could the Pope say that in the future women will receive the diaconate?

Müller: Contrary to what many think, the Pope is not the owner of the Church or absolute sovereign of her doctrine. He is only entrusted with safeguarding Revelation and its authentic interpretation. -F V Hale

A bootleg “ordination” recently took place here in the Diocese of Venice (FL). The so-called “bishop” was a woman who was technically an “episcopa vagantis,” [Technically, no. She is nothing of the sort, since she can never be a bishop] a wandering unlicensed bishop [No.] with no discernible credentials or authority from the Church. [How could she?] She had no standing with the local diocesan bishop, no credentials with the United States Conference of Catholic Bishops, and no standing or credentials with the Holy See in Rome. [Again, how could she?] The “ordination,” which was patently invalid (because the ordaining authority lacked any discernible credentials or license with the Catholic Church), took place in a Protestant (Episcopal-Lutheran) joint congregation church – a sure sign that the “ordination” is bootleg – and it took place in defiance of a strong letter from the local Catholic bishop warning that the ordination was illegitimate and that the participants, including the bootleg bishop, would be automatically excommunicated. [There it is.]

Since the participants were, according to the Fort Myers News-Press article, in rebellion against the true and real Catholic Church, they could hardly claim that, as a result of the [fake] “ordination,” they would be Roman Catholic Priests.

Personally, I call them Protestants, because that is what a Protestant is – a Christian in rebellion against the Catholic Church.

I have no idea whether our legitimate Catholic diocesan bishop pointed out the serious consequences to Christian Unity of the Episcopal Church’s and the Evangelical Lutheran Church in America’s willingness to harbor and pander to an illegitimate bootleg group that is in defiance of the Church to which they claim falsely to belong.

The only thing our bishop did NOT do was to show up personally at the so-called “ordination” service and personally denounce both the bootleg bishop and the ordinands as phonies. –Athanasios

Ecumenism = U-come-in-ism. It is for the sake of those outside the true faith. We are to find ways to present the true faith that are understandable to them, but we are never to change the faith in any way. -Jesus Through Mary

Father Z is of course absolutely correct in his red-ink mark-up of my post. Since the Holy Roman Catholic and Apostolic Church does not recognize and will not countenance women in the priesthood or in the episcopate as contrary to the Lord’s revelation and therefore the magisterium, what I should have said is that the woman in the bootleg ceremony was not only masquerading as a bishop but that the ceremony was masquerading as an ordination. And of course the fake bishop had no credentials, as the Church, acting through the Vicar of Christ in the Vatican, could not give her any such credentials for the reasons stated.

In other words, the entire event was an exercise in spiritual deception.

The irony is that I own all the pertinent documents of the Holy See regarding the question of the ordination of women, including “Inter Insigniores”.

I might add, as a footnote, that rebellion against the Church is rebellion against Christ in His Mystical Body the Church. Such rebellion can therefore put one’s eternal salvation into great danger. Rebellion is no little thing. We have, for example, the rebellion of Lucifer and his angels against God. God ultimately granted Lucifer’s wishes, and he and his minions were consigned to Hell. And they were in Heaven at the time! That, among other reasons, is why it is so important for us to be obedient sons and daughters of the Church and to strive, by the grace and aid of the Sacraments, for holiness in this life and for a holy death in preparation for the next just as we pray in the “Hail, Mary.”

I repent in dust and ashes. -Athanasios

Women as Priests

By Judith Levitt, September 29, 2012

http://www.nytimes.com/2012/09/30/opinion/sunday/women-as-priests.html?_r=0

Reformers within the Roman Catholic Church have been calling for the ordination of women as priests. The Vatican, however, refuses to consider the possibility and uses its power to silence those who speak out. Catholic clergy in Europe, Australia and the United States who have voiced public support for female ordination have been either dismissed or threatened with removal from administrative posts within the church.

For those who disobey the prohibition, the consequences are swift and severe. In 2008, the Vatican decreed that any woman who sought ordination, or a bishop who conferred holy orders on her, would be immediately “punished with excommunication.” It went a step further in 2010, categorizing any such attempt as delicta graviora — a grave crime against the church — the same category as priests who sexually abuse children.

Despite the official church position, clergy and laity have been fighting for the ordination of women since the early 1970s, hoping to expand upon the Vatican II reforms. And according to a 2010 poll by The New York Times and CBS, 59 percent of American Catholics favor the ordination of women.

In the last 10 years the Vatican has had to contend with a particularly indomitable group of women who seem to be unaffected by excommunication or other punishment offered by the church. The movement started when seven women were ordained by three Roman Catholic bishops aboard a ship on the Danube River in 2002. The women claimed their ordinations were valid because they conformed to the doctrine of “apostolic succession.” The group that grew out of that occasion calls itself Roman Catholic Womenpriests. There are now more than 100 ordained women priests and 11 bishops.

I grew up as a Catholic, although I don’t practice now. The first time I saw a female Roman Catholic priest on the church altar, dressed in traditional robes, performing the Eucharist and all of the rituals that I grew up with, I was amazed at how deeply it affected me emotionally. It had simply never occurred to me that a woman could preside over the church.

The Roman Catholic Church’s argument against the ordination of women is simple and relies on the logic of tradition: “that’s what we have always done.” Pope John Paul II issued an apostolic letter in 1994 saying that the church had no authority to ordain women because, among other reasons, Christ chose only men to be his apostles. Pope Benedict XVI agrees with his predecessor and insists that the church need offer no further justification for its opposition to women as priests, calling instead for a “radicalism of obedience.”

But contemporary theologians, historians and priests have been challenging the historical basis of the Vatican’s assertion. Recent research suggests that Mary Magdalene, among others, may have been an apostle and that women played leadership roles that profoundly shaped the early church.

Karen L. King’s recent discovery of a scrap of papyrus making reference to Jesus’ wife, and to a female disciple, adds weight to the charge that the Vatican’s opposition to the ordination of women is theologically and historically flawed. The Vatican, however, argues that the document was forged.

I photographed priests and bishops of the Roman Catholic Womenpriests movement to alter my own deep-seated perception of priests as male. I tried to capture their devotion and conviction and pay tribute to their efforts to reform the church.

Judith Levitt is a photojournalist based in Brooklyn.

Will new pope open door for women priests?

http://www.cbc.ca/news/world/story/2013/02/27/wrd-pope-roman-catholic-women-clergy.html

By Aleksandra Sagan, CBC News, February 27, 2013

As Pope Benedict XVI prepares to retire this week, and the College of Cardinals readies to elect a new Roman Catholic Church leader, many wonder if Benedict’s successor will take a more liberal position on women joining the priesthood, a sacrament currently forbidden to women.

“Respecting women and giving them a larger role in the church is very important,” Terence Fay, a Jesuit priest who teaches at the University of Toronto’s school of theology, told CBC News. “But, that takes time to move in that direction.”

He said the pope is the CEO of the largest corporation in the world and, like any administrator moving into a new leadership position, can only move so much on the political spectrum during a term. Making radical changes — such as starting to ordain women — would destroy the pope’s constituency, he said.

“Whereas the Western world may be ready for women clergy and so forth, a lot of the world is just not ready for that yet,” said Fay.

Male priesthood’s historical roots

Therese Koturbash is the international ambassador for Women Priests, an organization working towards achieving equality for women in the church by using theological and academic arguments. She said there are three historical reasons why women are not allowed to be priests in the Catholic Church. Women were considered:

-Unclean during menstruation.

-Inferior in every way.

-The source of original sin because of the Book of Genesis’ Adam and Eve story where a snake tricks Eve into eating from the tree of knowledge, which God had forbidden the pair from doing.

“We have not managed in our faith community to overcome those hurdles of belief,” said Koturbash.

Still, the 50-year-old said she believes women will be behind the pulpit in her lifetime. Koturbash disagrees with Fay that the international Catholic community is not ready to embrace female priests.

Catholic women worldwide are actively pressing for inclusion, she said. One group, Roman Catholic Womenpriests, has been subverting Vatican authority for more than a decade. Since 2002, more than 145 women in the group have been ordained by male priests, whose identities are kept hidden to avoid retribution from the Vatican.

Not ‘a big step to start including women’

It’s not such a big leap for the Vatican to take, said Koturbash.

“Already there have been so many changes that have happened in the church, that it wouldn’t be a big step to start including women,” she said.

During Benedict’s papacy, she said, the Pope showed some support for ordaining women as deacons. Deacons are the first rung on the ladder to priesthood. As a priest’s understudy, deacons are allowed to perform baptisms, marriages, wakes and funerals — among other responsibilities.

“They’re already talking the talk,” said Koturbash. “But, they’re not walking the walk.”

Benedict also took severe steps against priests preaching and campaigning in support of women clergy.

In 2012, the Maryknoll Fathers and Brothers excommunicated Roy Bourgeois, who had served as a priest there for about 40 years. Vatican officials said Bourgeois was stripped of his priesthood for preaching against church teachings on ordaining women. In a statement, the Vatican said Bourgeois ordained a woman in 2008.

Koturbash, who has been fighting for the ordination of women for more than a decade and marched with Bourgeois in a 2011 protest in Rome, is not dismayed.

“This conversation has become so mainstream that there’s no way that the new Vatican leadership can avoid it,” she said.

Not all Catholics keen on change

Even if female ordinance is a hot topic, it doesn’t mean most Catholics favour the idea.

Fay said his graduate students say they would like to see a conservative pope lead the church. It is important to his students that the spirit of the faith is not changed, he said, and the scripture is “preserved and not confused.”

A February survey by the Pew Research Centre, which questioned more than 300 American Catholics, echoed the students’ thoughts. More than half said the next pope should maintain traditional positions, while 46 per cent said he should move in new directions. When those who said the church should shift from its conservative stance were asked what changes the church should make, only nine people said women should be allowed to become priests.

Kyle Ferguson is the national coordinator for Canadian Catholic Campus Ministry, which supports postsecondary educational institutions’ ministries.

“In my experience, the issue of women’s ordination is not at the forefront of questions being asked by students,” said Ferguson, a 33-year-old recent university graduate. Students are more concerned with finances, academics and post-graduate employment, he said.

Kentucky woman ordained as priest in defiance of Roman Catholic Church

http://wtax.com/Kentucky-woman-ordained-as-priest-in-defiance-of-R/11472080?newsId=208673

By Mary Wisniewski, April, 27 2013 (Editing by Tim Gaynor and Mohammad Zargham)

Louisville, Kentucky (Reuters) – In an emotional ceremony filled with tears and applause, a 70-year-old Kentucky woman was ordained a priest on Saturday as part of a dissident group operating outside of official Roman Catholic Church authority.

Rosemarie Smead is one of about 150 women around the world who have decided not to wait for the Roman Catholic Church to lift its ban on women priests, but to be ordained and start their own congregations.

In an interview before the ceremony, Smead said she is not worried about being excommunicated from the Church – the fate of other women ordained outside of Vatican law.

“It has no sting for me,” said Smead, a petite, gray-haired former Carmelite nun with a ready hug for strangers. “It is a Medieval bullying stick the bishops used to keep control over people and to keep the voices of women silent. I am way beyond letting octogenarian men tell us how to live our lives.”

The ordination of women as priests, along with the issues of married priests and birth control, represents one of the big divides between U.S. Catholics and the Vatican hierarchy. Seventy percent of U.S. Catholics believe that women should be allowed to be priests, according to a New York Times/CBS News poll earlier this year.

The former pope, Benedict XVI, reaffirmed the Catholic Church’s ban on women priests and warned that he would not tolerate disobedience by clerics on fundamental teachings. Male priests have been stripped of their holy orders for participating in ordination ceremonies for women.

In a statement last week, Louisville Archbishop Joseph E. Kurtz called the planned ceremony by the Association of Roman Catholic Women Priests a “simulated ordination” in opposition to Catholic teaching.

“The simulation of a sacrament carries very serious penal sanctions in Church law, and Catholics should not support or participate in Saturday’s event,” Kurtz said.

The Catholic Church teaches that it has no authority to allow women to be priests because Jesus Christ chose only men as his apostles. Proponents of a female priesthood said Jesus was acting only according to the customs of his time.

They also note that he chose women, like Mary Magdalene, as disciples, and that the early Church had women priests, deacons and bishops.

The ceremony, held at St. Andrew United Church of Christ in Louisville, was attended by about 200 men and women. Many identified themselves to a Reuters reporter as Catholics, but some declined to give their names or their churches.

‘NEW ERA OF INCLUSIVITY’

The modern woman priest movement started in Austria in 2002, when seven women were ordained by the Danube River by an independent Catholic bishop. Other women were later ordained as bishops, who went on to ordain more women priests and deacons.

“As a woman priest, Rosemarie is leading, not leaving the Catholic Church, into a new era of inclusivity,” said Bishop Bridget Mary Meehan during her sermon Saturday. “As the Irish writer James Joyce reminded us, the word ‘Catholic’ means ‘Here comes everybody!'”

Smead had to leave the rigorous Carmelite life due to health reasons, and earned a bachelor’s degree in theology and a doctorate in counseling psychology. She taught at Indiana University for 26 years, and works as a couples and family therapist.

During the ordination ceremony, Smead wept openly as nearly everyone in the audience came up and laid their hands on her head in blessing. Some whispered, “Thanks for doing this for us.”

During the communion service, Smead and other woman priests lifted the plates and cups containing the sacramental bread and wine to bless them.

A woman in the audience murmured, “Girl, lift those plates. I’ve been waiting a long time for this.”

One of those attending the service was Stewart Pawley, 32, of Louisville, who said he was raised Catholic and now only attends on Christmas and Easter. But he said he would attend services with Smead when she starts to offer them in Louisville.

“People like me know it’s something the Catholic Church will have to do,” said Pawley.

Women-priest fakers allow Protestants to define who Catholics are. There must be consequences.

http://wdtprs.com/blog/2013/04/women-priest-fakers-allow-protestants-to-define-who-catholics-are-there-must-be-consequences/

Posted on 28 April 2013 by Fr. John Zuhlsdorf
[All emphases are those of Fr. Z]

When anti-Catholic ecumenical atrocities take place, Catholic bishops should act.

Here is an example which calls for consequences.

From WTAX in Kentucky:

Kentucky woman ordained as priest in defiance of Roman Catholic Church [Note either the carelessness or the bias? She was not ordained as anything.]

By Mary Wisniewski

LOUISVILLE, Kentucky (Reuters) – In an emotional ceremony filled with tears and applause, a 70-year-old Kentucky woman was ordained a priest [No. She went through a fake ceremony.] on Saturday as part of a dissident group operating outside of official Roman Catholic Church authority. [Liberals often use the word “official” as code. Watch for code.]

Rosemarie Smead is one of about 150 women around the world who have decided not to wait for the Roman Catholic Church to lift its ban on women priests, but to be ordained and start their own congregations.

In an interview before the ceremony, Smead said she is not worried about being excommunicated from the Church – the fate of other women ordained outside of Vatican law.

“It has no sting for me,” said Smead, a petite, gray-haired former Carmelite nun with a ready hug for strangers. [What slop.] “It is a Medieval bullying stick the bishops used to keep control over people and to keep the voices of women silent. I am way beyond letting octogenarian men tell us how to live our lives.” [Wayyyy beyond]

The ordination of women as priests, along with the issues of married priests and birth control, represents one of the big divides between U.S. Catholics and the Vatican hierarchy. [And it is the writer’s objective to widen the divide. Note also how the “issues” are not easily related.] Seventy percent of U.S. Catholics believe that women should be allowed to be priests, according to a New York Times/CBS News poll earlier this year.

The former pope, Benedict XVI, reaffirmed the Catholic Church’s ban on women priests
[“ban on women priests” requires the premise that there is such a thing as a woman priest. There isn’t] and warned that he would not tolerate disobedience by clerics on fundamental teachings. Male priests have been stripped of their holy orders [No. That’s impossible. Holy Orders confer an indelible mark on the soul that can’t be “stripped”. They have been “stripped” of permission to function as a priest] for participating in ordination ceremonies for women.

“The simulation of a sacrament carries very serious penal sanctions in Church law, and Catholics should not support or participate in Saturday’s event,” Kurtz said.

They also note that he chose women, like Mary Magdalene, as disciples, and that the early Church had women priests, deacons and bishops [Which is not true].

[HERE, folks, is a big problem…] The ceremony, held at St. Andrew United Church of Christ in Louisville, was attended by about 200 men and women. Many identified themselves to a Reuters reporter as Catholics, but some declined to give their names or their churches. […]

The rest of the piece is rubbish.

Here’s the bottom line. Antics like this should have consequences for ecumenical dialogue.

The women’s ordination thing is silliness. It is a circus.

A Protestant church hosted the circus. They gave the Catholic Church the finger.

There should be consequences.

We either take ecumenism seriously or we don’t. If we do – and I believe we must – we have to react strongly when ecumenical ideals are so grossly violated by Protestants who invite or permit these “women priest” ceremonies in their churches.

The most sacred rites of the Catholic Church are Holy Mass and ordination to Holy Orders.

They effectively trampled rites that we Catholics hold as sacred.

These silly Catholic women-priest supporters are committing sacrilege in simulating Mass and Orders.

However, the Protestants who host them are assisting in a mockery of our Holy Mass and a mockery of our priesthood.

For a long time progressivist Catholics were staging Jewish sedar* meals in their churches. Some Jews were angered by this. We got the message from the Jews and stopped doing what was offensive to them. *It should read as ‘Seder’

By allowing this group of fakers into their churches, those Protestants accepted the premise that what those women play at is actually a Catholic ordination and a Mass.

How dare PROTESTANTS decide what a Catholic Mass is?

And if they respond, “Gee, we mean no disrespect. We are just giving space to this group”, then what they are doing is aiding a protest against the Catholic Church.

There is no way around this.

Protestants who give these fakers aid are either on their side, and thus support their claim that what they are doing really is an ordination and Mass, or in claiming not to be taking sides they are still giving support to an anti-Catholic protest.

Bishops have to take action when offensive, anti-Catholic things like this take place.

Upon hearing the news that this ceremony is going to take place (or has taken place), the local Catholic bishop must call the pastor of that Protestant parish and say, “I’m the Catholic Bishop. Do not allow this sacrilege to be committed in your church. You wouldn’t do this for a group of dissident Jews wanting to ordain rabbis, but we are Catholics so you don’t care what offense you give us. Until an apology is issued, don’t look for us to dialogue with you again.”

Then that Catholic bishop should call the head of the denomination and convey the same message.

Then that Catholic Bishop should send an informative note to the USCCB’s ecumenical office and to the CDF and to the Pontifical Council for Promoting Christian Unity to let them know the facts of the sacrileges that took place and who helped them.

Then that Catholic bishop should call the press and give them his view about the offense the Protestants gave and the damage they inflicted on ecumenical dialogue.

16 SELECTED [OUT OF 72] COMMENTS
[Interjections within brackets [] in red colour are by Fr. Z]

I notice the old canard ‘Proponents of a female priesthood said Jesus was acting only according to the customs of his time.’

Which is more likely: that Our Lord, God-become-Man, should get things wrong because of the customs and thinking of His time; or that a 70-year-old Kentucky woman should get things wrong because of the customs and thinking of her time?

It’s not rocket science… -Ben Trovato

The reporter was probably invited. Based on a horrifying conversation with the consort of an alleged womanpriesty/ss, they have invitation only events and claim to have parish and archdiocese employees attend, but know they’ll be excommunicated if found out. Protestants are usually very ecumenical and many of them have women ministers so they don’t see the problem. The alleged Catholics in attendance totally ignore that they self-excommunicate and nobody need tattle to the Bishop if they’re seen. The interesting thing is how these women claim to be Catholic, but aren’t willing to be bullied by octogenarians; the current bully in chief is a septuagenarian so maybe they don’t realize there’s a new pope?

Anyway, the guy who did theological back flips has since retired so I haven’t received an update on their craziness. They do know that they’re in the wrong or they wouldn’t bother with the invite only events. -Nan

We will note that the specific protestant denomination in this case was the UCC.

The UCC that “ordained” Rev Jeremiah “God d@m* America” Wright.

The UCC that openly embraces and encourages open, practicing homosexuality.

The UCC that has, as a member, the abortionist-in-chief (and most pro-infanticide president in US history)

The UCC that makes a mockery of all things Christian.

Just to keep things in context here. –Mark O’Malley

There is only one dialogue necessary with these heretics:

Extra Ecclesiam nulla salus! –Christopher

Without contradiction, another perspective… Ecumenism is often misconstrued as John Lennon-like indifferentism.
It is a work of mercy to instruct the ignorant and to give warning to sinners, but also to bear wrongs patiently.

What is the point of ecumenism (oikumena_ism, cat_hol_icism)?
The salvation of souls otherwise separated from the Church.

Intellectual understanding that participation in such fake ordination ceremonies constitutes grave matter for serious sin,
neither requires nor urges (even ‘righteous’) anger, much less does it invite hopes for consequences (other than enlightenment and salvation) for those involved.

“True ecumenism does not consist in lying down and letting some other church kick you…”
Frumentum Christi sum, dentibus bestiarum molar, ut panis mundus inveniar.
“I am the grain of Christ. I am milled by the teeth of beasts, so that I may be found pure bread.” –Soporatus

Some highlights from the main webpage of the heretical UCC website of the community who hosted the sacrilege. Their overall emphasis is clearly on the salvation of souls. Notice how their 50 Great Days are not the 50 from Easter to Pentecost…so green:

*50 Great Days (April 1 – May 19) … The United Church of Christ’s goal is to engage in:
1 million hours of engaged earth care
100,000 trees planted locally & globally
100,000 letters of environmental advocacy

*The next Taize service is Sunday, May 12 at 7:00 p.m. at John Knox Presbyterian Church.

*For the season of Easter, our theme is “A Wild Goose Chase.”

*St. Andrew is hosting an ordination service for Rose Marie Smead on April 27 at 1:00 p.m. Rose Marie is being ordained as a Female Catholic priest.

*St. Andrew is an Open and Affirming (ONA) Congregation. We openly welcome everybody, including those of the LGBT community. -Atra Dicenda

“The ordination of women as priests, along with the issues of married priests and birth control, represents one of the big divides between U.S. Catholics and the Vatican hierarchy.”

Apples, oranges and bananas.

There are probably few active U.S. Catholics who care at all about the ordination of women, a much larger number who care about the ordination of married men, and a vastly huge number that don’t see birth control as divisive because they don’t see the hierarchy’s statement on the matter as authoritative or relevant.

Most of the people that I’ve met who are zealous about the ordination of women aren’t active Catholics. Most of the people who favor the ordination of married men are probably unwilling to ante up and pay the difference; at the rate the average Catholic gives a living wage for a priest who is father/husband/provider is impossible. Are all the people who want the ordination of married men willing to triple or quadruple their contribution?

Those two issues are boutique issues that really don’t cause a divide between the prelates and the people in the pews. On the other hand being beat over the head with the birth control issue, which the majority of active Catholics have long since decided to ignore, is undermining the moral authority of the bishops. [And you were doing so well in the paragraphs above that I almost… almost… gave you a Gold Star! And then, this! In case the readership missed, you made the point that because birth control is either a moot or a loser issue, when priest/bishops talk about, they are undercutting their own moral authority. Piffle. Bull piffle.]

Odd that the list did not even include equal marriage rights, which is clearly a bigger issues than all three. -Fr. Jim

So. basically….she is a protestant who went through a fake ceremony to get attention. -St. Jude

If Jesus was only acting according to the customs of His time He would have:

1) told Mary to help Martha in the kitchen

2) not spoken to the Samaritan woman

3) banished the unclean woman who touched Him

4) told Mary Magdalene to find a man to witness to His Resurrection

5) told the women who followed Him around (Susannah, Joanna, Mary, etc.) to get lost

6) said that married women have to stay that way in Heaven

Need we go on? Jesus broke customs left and right in His dealings with women. He constantly affirmed their equal dignity with men – no wonder they adored Him. -Gracie

You know, I would have slightly more respect for these women (only slightly, mind you, but still more) if, before having their dress-up ceremony, they showed any willingness whatsoever to first endure the years of authentic Catholic theological training that real priests are required to complete. And reading “Catholic Theology for Dummies” doesn’t count. The fauxdination would still be wrong and invalid, of course, but at least they would be demonstrating their seriousness about the vocation. [What the women-priests do is serious and wrong. But the point of this entry is to underscore what an offense Protestants offer to Catholics when they host these evil services. They clearly don’t care even a Brummagem ha’porth about ecumenical dialogue.] –Tradster

False ecumenism is the motivating force behind most profanities, sacrileges and blasphemies, including the disgusting spectacle of women defying the will of God concerning Holy Orders. False ecumenism has infected the highest levels of the Church. In essence, it is a repudiation of justice whereby heretics are placated while the humble faithful Catholic in the pew is barely tolerated. Most importantly, false ecumenism is the sworn enemy of the Real Presence. These two foes are locked in a fight to the death. Either false ecumenism will have to go or the Real Presence will have to go. False ecumenists have succeeded in downplaying the Real Presence to a shocking degree, but they will not rest content with this achievement. They want more. Their dream is for heretics to continue to be heretics but think of themselves as “right with God”. The only way this can happen is to obliterate the Real Presence, the source and summit of Catholic truth. –Marylise

Rosemarie Smead: “I am way beyond letting octogenarian men tell us how to live our lives.”
TRANSLATED: “I am moving way beyond Jesus” Have these 70+ women been given some sort of feminist, man hating Kool-aid in their formative years? I’ve known some women around that age which think the same way Smead does. They are VERY feminist, yet consider themselves VERY Catholic. Feminism is a form of Communism. –NBW

Please forgive my ignorance. While I agree wholeheartedly with Father Z’s call to respond in the name of true ecumenism I fail to see what we can do that will make a lasting difference. I’m not implying that nothing can be done, only that I personally fail to see what to do. I mean, if these people refuse to see the truth for what it is, or, better, decide to see a lie for the truth, what can we do in the face of such an abuse of right reason? In the dictatorship of relativism the autocrat thereof is blind to logical argumentation. It seems that the attack on and abuses of the Church will get worse and the best course of action for us is to pray for fortitude to withstand the attack while clinging to the good Lord. I believe that Pope Emeritus Benedict was right to say that the Church would grow small*. While I do not doubt that there is much more to “the process of crystallization and clarification” to which Benedict referred than what my weak mind can envision, Benedict did say that we would become a Church of the meek (which word I take to reflect the virtue of fortitude and therefore patience), and to me this also implies that we simply shoulder on in the face of insult and injury, and indeed, even mockery as the case is here. -Lucas Whittaker

The thing that irritates me is not the bias, which is a given in any media, and with the news media it is controlled by whoever owns them, but with this argument that it was just the custom of the time. It was not the custom. Outside of the Jews every religion had priestesses and gave women top places in carrying out their rites. Christianity was in a sea of priestesses, if they just conformed to the custom of the age there would have been women priestesses. Plus, most scholars have noted how the church gave women a place unheard of in pagan society, so if we want to get down to it, a religion that teaches fornication (which destroys how many women’s lives?) is evil and husbands divorcing for younger women is evil, that children must obey their mother does a lot more than secular society which has made woman a thing. –Athanasius

When a similar situation occurred in Oregon, complete with the article in the Oregonian, then-Archbishop Vlazny wrote an excellent piece in the Catholic Sentinel. In it, he noted that he had said nothing about what other people were doing in their own churches, that is until they started claiming in the newspaper that their rituals were Roman Catholic. He called for non-Catholics who do not agree with us to at least be respectful of our sacraments, rather than treating us with disregard:
http://www.catholicsentinel.org/main.asp?SectionID=2&SubSectionID=35&ArticleID=8251

“On Friday, Aug. 17, the Oregonian reported on a religious ceremony at Zion United Church of Christ in Gresham which was described as a Roman Catholic ‘ordination’. According to the report, we now have the first woman Roman Catholic priest in Oregon. Most readers, hopefully, were somewhat suspicious about the event when they learned it did not take place in a Catholic church. Out of respect for those involved in the ceremony, I had decided to make no public statement. The Oregonian also said nothing for three weeks.

My main purpose in speaking up now is to assure you that there was no ordination of a Roman Catholic priest at Zion United Church of Christ in Gresham on July 28. Even though Catholics were involved, the claim that it was a Catholic ceremony is wrong but, hopefully, not intentionally disrespectful of a sacrament which we Catholics regard as a precious treasure, one for which we are called to exercise reverent and faithful stewardship.

Our relationships with other churches are sometimes fragile because of differences in beliefs and values. But in all ecumenical relationships Christian churches do their best to respect the diversity in practices and beliefs. I regret the apparent disregard for this understanding.

Any person who claims to have been ordained a Catholic bishop, priest or deacon without the proper authorization from church authorities not only is making a false representation of the facts but also by such an act leaves our church community. We are always saddened when sisters and brothers walk away from us, particularly in this manner. We continue to work and pray for unity in the essentials of our Christian faith and for charity and mutual respect in circumstances where we disagree.”

He also wrote another piece on sacramental integrity that was very good:
http://www.catholicsentinel.org/main.asp?SectionID=2&SubSectionID=35&ArticleID=9263

It included this:
“….recent years the media has informed us about the so-called “ordination of women priests.” There are those who proclaim that it’s a matter of justice that women be allowed into the priesthood. Jesus was clearly an agent for justice in his time and he did not call women to the apostolic ministry as he did the twelve apostles. Priests share in that apostolic ministry with their bishops.

Certainly a woman can pretend to be a priest. There are also many men who pretend to be priests but who are not ordained validly, let alone legitimately. But because they claim to be priests and are talented and generous, many choose to accept them as priests and participate in their alleged sacramental celebrations. This is a serious blow to the sacramental integrity which is a hallmark of our church.

In recent times marriage as we know it has been challenged to the limit. People presume that civil marriage can be whatever civil society wants it to be in this present age of secularism and relativism. But that is not how marriage has been understood over the centuries both by civil society and by the church. This matter is all the more significant for us Catholics because in our community marriage is a sacrament, the love of husband for wife mirroring the love of Christ for his spouse, the church. Even if civil society acknowledges same-sex marriage as legitimate, this is impossible for the church. Because we also see this as harmful to family life, we speak out against such civil marriages and we certainly work to preserve the integrity of sacramental marriage. …” -BLB

What to do, What to do, somebody asked.

Double our prayers and fast is all we can do.
“Some evils can only be over come except by prayers AND fasting.” Mark 9:29

Most of our bishops have bought into this Ecumenism @#*& and try to push us into this error.
They will not listen if the Faithful protest. They look upon us as the “divisive ones”.
Yet, Ecumenism is a one-way street.

No reasonable parent would invite a neighbor’s child to come into their home, where they can disobey the rules laid down by that neighbor.
Yet that is ecumenism does:
They say: “We don’t like your rules for your children, so they can come on over to our house and disobey you”.
And WE? We are expected to say “I respect your rules, though we disagree with them. Let’s get along”.
We give up God’s Eternal Truths and Authority as taught to us by Our Lord in order to “get along” with error.-Bea

*1. Faith and the Future, a 1969 book written by Cardinal Ratzinger published by Ignatius Press

http://www.catholiceducation.org/articles/Interiorlife/iloo13.htm
EXTRACT

“She will no longer be able to inhabit many of the edifices she built in prosperity. As the number of her adherents diminishes . . . she will lose many of her social privileges. . . As a small society, [the Church] will make much bigger demands on the initiative of her individual members…

It will be hard-going for the Church, for the process of crystallization and clarification will cost her much valuable energy. It will make her poor and cause her to become the Church of the meek . . . The process will be long and wearisome as was the road from the false progressivism on the eve of the French Revolution — when a bishop might be thought smart if he made fun of dogmas and even insinuated that the existence of God was by no means certain… But when the trial of this sifting is past, a great power will flow from a more spiritualized and simplified Church. Men in a totally planned world will find themselves unspeakably lonely. If they have completely lost sight of God, they will feel the whole horror of their poverty. Then they will discover the little flock of believers as something wholly new. They will discover it as a hope that is meant for them, an answer for which they have always been searching in secret.

And so it seems certain to me that the Church is facing very hard times. The real crisis has scarcely begun. We will have to count on terrific upheavals. But I am equally certain about what will remain at the end: not the Church of the political cult, which is dead already, but the Church of faith. She may well no longer be the dominant social power to the extent that she was until recently; but she will enjoy a fresh blossoming and be seen as man’s home, where he will find life and hope beyond death.”

See also:

2. THE WORLD OVER: CARDINAL RATZINGER INTERVIEW – Raymond Arroyo with Joseph Cardinal Ratzinger

http://www.ewtn.com/library/ISSUES/RATZINTV.HTM

September 5, 2003

3. “A Leaner, Smaller, Purer Church”?

http://www.businessweek.com/stories/2005-05-01/online-extra-a-leaner-smaller-purer-church

May 1, 2005

4. INTERVIEW OF THE HOLY FATHER BENEDICT XVI WITH THE JOURNALISTS DURING THE FLIGHT TO THE UNITED KINGDOM

Interview with Fr. Lombardi, Papal Flight, September 16, 2010

http://www.vatican.va/holy_father/benedict_xvi/speeches/2010/september/documents/hf_ben-xvi_spe_20100916_interv-regno-unito_en.html

UPDATES TO THIS REPORT WILL BE REGULARLY INCLUDED AT BOTH ENDS

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The Ordination of Women and Radical Feminism

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The Ordination of Women and Radical Feminism

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